Question: If we are saved by grace alone (and we are) how can anyone be saved if they believe that you can lose your salvation? If one believes they can lose their salvation does not that faith then become a work, rather than a gift of God? If someone believes they can lose their salvation, do they really believe that it is the finished work of Christ, and not the "work" of faith, that saves them? If someone believes that they can lose their salvation, would it be true that their faith is no longer a free gift from God, but something the sinner needs to muster up daily to keep their salvation? So here is the hard question. In this matter, can we be saved in spite bad theology? If someone truly held to the five points of Arminianism, could they have "real" saving faith? Can you have real saving faith without understanding Grace Alone?
Response: We do not exactly hold the view that Arminians are lost. Much bad theology turns out merely to be inconsistent theology and it is possible to be saved in spite of bad theology, but only if you are inconsistent, and you don't really believe what you think or say you believe. I find, in my many encounters with Arminians, that this is usually the case. Thankfully I think a good number Arminians are inconsistent, and they don't really believe what they say. For example, they pray for God to bring friends and neighbors to salvation - why? God has no power (or right) to do that, according to Arminianism. But some Arminians (I would argue, the ones that are saved) know in their heart that salvation IS all the work of God and IS all by grace. So they pray for God to save sinners! Their true theology comes out in their prayers, even if they don't want to admit it. I feel that, over time and with patience, these people would become reformed in theology if they had good teaching and instruction.
There are some Arminians who agree that salvation is all of Christ - that even faith is only the instrument by which we receive Christ. Most Arminians I engage with will clearly acknowledge that they have no hope save in the mercy of Jesus Christ alone and if it were not for prevenient grace they would never come to Christ on their own. In fact most classic Arminians believe this. As long as all their trust is in Christ, and they see faith as nothing more than an instrument to receive Him, then it is probable they are saved and we should be generous in thinking they are. You may say, how can "everything be of Christ" if faith is from us? I would answer, it is possible to be inconsistent! (we all are to some extent) But it is a happy inconsistency, as long as they truly rest on Christ alone. On the other hand, if they say they rest on Christ alone, but really ultimately trust in their own work of faith, they are not saved. There are Arminians who see faith as the "work" by which God accepts them, because Christ has made it possible for God to now accept this new "work" of faith instead of the "work" of the law - such people are not saved. If an Arminian was consistently self-consciously opposed to the truth that salvation is resting on the finished work of Christ alone, they would not be saved.
An Arminian who affirms that someone can lose their salvation is delving into very dangerous waters because this means they believe Jesus is not sufficient to save completely, but that we must somehow maintain our own just standing before God. But oftentimes I think this is again an inconsistency because they would never consciously say that Jesus work is insufficient. Their theology denies that at one point and embraces it at another.
There are, however, certain vocal Arminians that my heart becomes heavy with concern with. For example, a prominent Arminian, when recently speaking against the Reformed view of God's meticulous sovereignty over all things said, "The God of Calvinism scares me; I'm not sure how to distinguish him from the devil." When I hear such rash comments coming from a person who claims to be a Christian I cringe because in reality they are essentially calling God, the devil. The heart is hardening to a point I consider to be playing with fire. Other Arminians may not be so crass but speak of the reformed view of God's sovereignty and salvation by grace ALONE so mockingly that I again find myself concerned for their souls because, in fact, they are speaking this way about God and His word, not just another viewpoint. If the Reformed view is a true representation of God then they actually end up mocking God, a place I do not wish upon anyone.
So, to sum up, a fully consistent Arminian is not saved - but to be fully consistent you would have to be an open theist or something like it. But some Arminians are inconsistent, truly trusting in Christ alone, grace alone, but not thinking through what that means when it comes to faith, perseverance, etc. They are very weak, and need to be taught the truth. IF they resist that teaching, and cling to their own contribution to salvation, it may be evidence that they are not saved. If they receive the teaching, and say, yes, this is true - it is grace alone, and grow in this, then they are saved and perhaps were before, but not enjoying their salvation, because bogged down in inconsistently bad theology. Consider that if someone is truly regenerated by the Holy Spirit but has sit for years under the false teaching of his denomination, he will become resistant to hearing the truth, especially the first time because his tradition has largely replaced it. If confronted with Scripture long enough it is probable they will be stripped of all poor understanding and self-effort, BUT many of these persons will likely NEVER have the opportunity to be confronted on this in their environment, that is, until Jesus returns. There are many Chrisitans in China in remote places who could not possibly come into contact with a theologically reforemd church but the Holy Spirit may have quickened them while reading the Scriptures. I will not count out the fact that such a person may be saved.
Every time you sin and every time you think wrong thoughts about God you are acting or thinking inconsistently. This does not mean you are unsaved. God often leaves us in weakness so we will trust more in what Christ has done for us. Having perfect theology certainly does not save us, Christ does, even if we understand this less than perfectly as I indeed do.
So for some Arminians, becoming Reformed truly marks their conversion to Christ. Others I think are "reformed" without knowing it. They might call themselves Arminians, but they aren't. That's why I resist making blanket statements that "all Arminians are not saved."
Typical Calvinistic argument. Create an argument by falsely presenting the opposing views beliefs in order to win an argument. But now there's a new twist... the Calvinist now believes he has the authority to determine who and who isn't saved based on how closely one leans toward Calvinism or how consistent or inconsistent one is in their views differing from Calvinism.
Seriously James... do you really believe this dung you paste? Do you, James Poster, really believe you have the authority and power to determine who is and who isn't saved based on the views one holds in opposition to yours and/or based on the lies of those who create twisted views such as is found in your article? Will you even answer that question?
:excited:..James, you are too funneeeee, and much:ROFL::toomuch:...Arminians are just as much saved as are Calvinist!
Remember, it not what you believe that saves you, IT IF IN WHOM YOU BELIEVE IN who demonstrated His LOVE towrad us while we were all l still sinners, who saves ya!... Praise God for Jesus Christ, His cross, His marvelous grace, and by faith to BELIEVE in whom one trust.:yay:
oooooppps! corrections: Remember, its not what you believe that saves you, IT IS IN WHOM YOU BELIEVE IN who demonstrated His LOVE toward us while we were all still sinners, it is God who saves ya!... Praise God for Jesus Christ, His cross, His marvelous grace, and by faith to BELIEVE in whom one trust.
When we stubborn, unregenerate, measly, non repentant, and sinful humans believe we who have violated God�s Moral laws have the right, and a free will, to override God and choose Him and grant ourselves salvation, we make ourselves a God, because we believe we can checkmate God and that He doesn�t have the power to do anything about it. Nor would He be Sovereign with the power to choose whom He wants to save. When one believes he or she can checkmate God they are on VERY dangerous ground.
Typical Calvinistic argument. Create an argument by falsely presenting the opposing views beliefs in order to win an argument.
James replies:
You have made an accusation, now specifically WHAT was false about what Arminians believe in the article above?
71 continues:
But now there's a new twist... the Calvinist now believes he has the authority to determine who and who isn't saved based on how closely one leans toward Calvinism or how consistent or inconsistent one is in their views differing from Calvinism.
James replies:
First off, Arminianism was declared heresy in the 1500's, directly after the followers of James Arminius presented their five points to the churches.
Secondly, the author of the article said he did NOT automatically consider a person not saved because they are Arminian. I believe the same way, and that is why I posted the article.
You are just mad because the topic was even brought up!
guess what? your hyper sentimental Arminian view contradicts Scripture, and verses of Scripture YOU IGNORE get posted on this group, and you are asked to deal with Scriptures that clearly contradict your interpretation of the 'world' and 'all' verses.
71 continues:
Seriously James... do you really believe this dung you paste? Do you, James Poster, really believe you have the authority and power to determine who is and who isn't saved based on the views one holds in opposition to yours and/or based on the lies of those who create twisted views such as is found in your article? Will you even answer that question?
James replies:
Yes, and my answer is I think you are kind of nutty.
I also think you are dishonest about dealing with the Scriptures presented to you.
You are shown where Jesus says TWICE to the disciples, that
Jesus said, "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME.", and your response is to ignore those verses, and then post John 3:16 and act like that somehow cancels what Jesus said in John 6!
That is childish, and typical for what passes for discussion on CDFF.
IF.........a Christian were looking to FIND OUT THE TRUTH, they would actually DEAL WITH ALL THE BIBLICAL DATA, instead of IGNORING the verses Calvinists post on this group, and then posting a few "all" verses and act like they just canceled out the 50 verses just shown to you, that contradict your interpretation!
Notice Paul was praying for the church at Ephesus and these Christians where not only born again but they also had received the gift of the Holy Spirit, if they need to be prayed for how much is it appropriate to us today, we are a part of the same church, if they needed it, then so do those in the church that we might comprehend what love did for mankind when Jesus was sent to the earth, lived and died and was resurrected and in all that redeemed mankind from the curse that came upon the earth and mankind, when sin first entered into the earth.
One walking in the light of this love should never say anything against this act of love such as the following statements:
Prosperity is satanic, when actually it is of satan that say's prosperity is of satan, that is a statement of fear not walking in the light of the love of God.
Love would never say healing is not for all, when actually divine health has been provided.
One would never turn their head against the truth of the Gift of the holy spirit.
Love in the heart of man would never say that love did not pay the price for all of mankind to come unto the father by faith, but fear would.
Love would not continually be talking about sin, but the voice of fear would.
Love would never proclaim that the rapture would be at the end of the tribulation, but the voice of fear would.
Love would not see the father as an angry God, but the voice of fear would.
Love would want to know and understand fully the topic of faith, but fear would not, for fear wants no man to know the fullness of the love of God towards mankind.
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14 � For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
4:1 � I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
4:2 � With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Perfect Love will cast all fear but you have to cooperate with it with it, love that is you have to start by listening to voice of love, the word of God.
You Cite a verse that you �Twist� and �Snip� and �Contour� and then show us �Part� of the complete Scripture. Here is the Complete Scripture:
John 6:44-45
New International Version (NIV)
44 �No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: �They will all be taught by God.�[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
��will all be taught by God.�[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.�
Now�that says Quite a Different thing than �God elects��doesn�t it?
How much Longer will you Continue with This Blasphemy! You Prevert Scripture and you do it thinking you are Immune to Punishment or The Wrath of God? Shame on you�James�Shame on You!
