Thread: Defending My Faith -- My Beliefs -- My Church
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Defending My Faith -- My Beliefs -- My Church
Posted : 30 Aug, 2011 11:02 PM
James, and all of my Brothers and Sisters did believe in Sola Scriptura.
Your �View� of Christianity is Totally Dependent on
Sola Scriptura.
You cannot Listen to any �Church Tradition� because it is Catholic (She was The Only Church for over 1500 Years).
If your Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not True or even not Scriptural�then what you believe (that The Catholic Church does not Teach)�is False.
Show me Where in Scripture does it say��I (Scripture) is to be the Only Pillar and Foundation of The Truth�. That there is not to be any other Revelation from God to Man held as Sacred.
And�please�do not trot out 2 Timothy 3:16
2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
This Simply says that �All Scripture is �USEFUL���
��Useful�� � not �the only Revelation to be used�.
1 Timothy 3:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God�s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
��the Pillar and Foundation of the TRUTH.�
I hope I do not need to �Interpret� this for you.
I know this piece of Scripture �sticks� in your craw (and of Many Christians) because you would never Submit to your church�s authority (because to you and Many Christians) due to the fact that it �Has No authority�.
The Only authority you �listen� to is�yourself! Sure�you do �Lip Service� to Scripture and God�s Word and all that hallelujah �stuff��but the Bottom Line is that if YOU don�t like it�if YOU don�t Understand it�then�by golly�I�ll find some Scripture (you don�t care how Obscure it is) and even if you do not find any Scripture�you will still reject it�
AND FIND OTHER CHRISTIANS THAT BELIEVE THE SAME WAY�
And start your own church.
The Early Christians
HEARD and BELIEVED! They did not hear and changed what they heard.
Well�I take that back�there were those that heard Jesus say that
�If you do not Eat of my Flesh�� and �Left HIM� (the Proto-Type of those the Rebelled later).
But my Point is that they Submitted Themselves to Christ and His Church!
The Church has Always been the Final Arbitrator of what is TRUTH and Morals.
Matthew 18:15-17
New International Version (NIV)
15 �If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that �every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.�[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
This is in Scripture�do you Deny its TRUTH?
Matthew 16:18-19
New International Version (NIV)
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.�
There is a Lineage that can be Traced from Every Priest and Pope that Leads back to The Apostles and Christ. To Deny this is to Deny Reality and Truth.
Matthew 28:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Christ Created a Teaching Church�a Teaching Church.
Holy Scripture needs a Teacher. Without someone to Teach what Scripture �Speaks� to�it is like a �horse without a rider�. No one here would attend a class in order to �Learn��that had No Teacher!
Christ Gave His Church�His Bride�Everything She needed to Know concerning His Commandments and Morals. Christ gave Her The Full Deposit of Faith�in Order for Her to be Able to TEACH.
Jesus also Gave Her The Holy Spirit to ENSURE that Man would not Corrupt those TRUTHS and COMMANDMENTS.
Christ PROMISED that She would Endure until The End of Time.
The Church is Run by Men, Many are Pious�Holy Men�yet some have satan whispering in their ears. She has made mistakes�some Horrendous�but The TRUTHS that Christ Gave Her...have been Vouchsafed and Held Incorruptible since Christ Gave them to Her.
As A Protestant (Protesting Catholicism) you can only believe in The Divine Revelation from God that was WRITTEN down! But�you must Realize that God also Revealed Himself ORALLY � when He Spoke to The Prophets and when He Spoke Through The Holy Spirit. Plus Scripture tells us of times when Christ Did things and Said things that were Not Recorded in Scripture.
Well�you say�if God wanted us to know something � God would have put it in Scripture. You say this because it is what you were taught. You make assumptions that God can only Reveal Himself to Man in only One Way. Do I have to pull up Scripture where a Prophet said
�So Spoke The Lord�
This is Oral Revelation. Are we to Deny this simply because we have to �Take a Man�s Word?� If The Church � upon Whom God Gave Full Authority to �Bind� or �Loosen� � Rabbinical �Talk� that means to Create Laws that we are Bound to or to Release us from such Laws � says that this Oral Revelation is TRUTH�then it is TRUTH.
By the way�this is the Same Authority that you Accepted when She DECIDED which Books or Letters would Go Into The New Testament! It would seem Hypocritical to say
�I accept your Authority on this Decision of Yours�
(because You LIKE IT), but not when you Do NOT LIKE IT.
There is also the Things Jesus said and Did that were not Recorded in Scripture. Are we to Discount them? There is not a whole lot of what happened during The Forty Days before Jesus Ascended in Scripture.
John 20:29-31
The Purpose of John�s Gospel
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Scripture was Written to REVEAL GOD�CHRIST�to Mankind so that Man might Believe and Be Saved. And�Yes�it is USEFUL ��for Teaching, Rebuking, Correcting and Training in Righteousness,�� but the Key Word is USEFUL.
God did Not Intend for Scripture to be The Only Form of His Revelation.
John 21:25
New International Version (NIV)
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Are we to Discount these things that Christ Our Savior Did�simply Because we Refuse to Submit to The Church Christ Started?
John 16:12-13
New International Version (NIV)
12 �I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
What about what The Holy Spirit �Guided� The Apostles �Into� (TRUTH). Where has that TRUTH Gone?
My Brothers and Sisters�it is this Oral Revelation from God (Sacred Tradition) AND God�s Written Revelation (Scripture) that Compose The Full Deposit of Faith and it is The Magisterium (The Teaching Church) that Ensures that it is Taught Faithfully and Correctly.
Incidentally�when Christ Spoke of man�s tradition He was Speaking of those things that men make a tradition (small (t))�such as Birthday Cakes�Fourth of July � not what The Church holds Sacred (capital (T)�Oral Revelations.
The Church has a Tradition of �Handing Down� what was Taught to Disciples.
1 Corinthians 11:23
New International Version (NIV)
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
New International Version (NIV)
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Christ�s Teachings were Passed on ORALLY � by Word of Mouth.
2 Timothy 2:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.
��Qualified to Teach Others.�
2 Thessalonians 2:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Paul in his Letter to Titus tells Titus to Appoint ��elders in every town, as I directed you�� and Paul then tells Titus what the Characteristics of the Church Leader should be and in Verse 9 Pauls says
��9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.�
THIS IS The Duty of The Church.
To �..encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.�
That is Why I am In The Church that I am In. Her Truths have Not Changed since The Beginning. She is The Only Church I have Known. I have not �bounced� from church to church�looking for what �feels� good to me�what I �want�.
I have seen churches Split because of an argument over the Color of the New Carpet � (truthfully�they were headed there anyway�they had two �preachers��one young and vibrant�the other was older and �old school�).
Sorry this has gone so long�but I felt it was Important.
Where you are and just �How� you Worship Christ is not what is going to �Doom� you. Your Personal Relationship with Christ is what Decides where you are heading. Are you �Following� His Wishes for you�what Christ Wants of you�what He Has Commanded�ALL OF US?
Christ has so commanded all believers ot go teach and preach the GOSPEL, which is the Doctrine of Jesus Christ: HIs Birth, His ministry, His Death, His Resecurrtion, and His soon return unto salvation.
He has NOT commanded us to go teach or preach the doctrien or theology of our Church, or what we belife in our church history or church rules or bylaws, or that of other men who were apart of our church's history... there is no other name or doctrine by wich people everywhere MIGHT BE SAVED, except through the NANE OF JESUS CHIRST.
We are taught that we should always Contend for the faith, THIS DOES NOT MEAN contending for the faith that you receive from believing in your church doctrines or teachings.
Contending for the faith as Paul speaks about is that Faith that is found ONLY in Christ Jesus, and what H did for us on the cross... His cross of redemption, and not in man made doctrines or teaching of the church.
Paul says that he preaches not His OWN doctrine or the traditions of men, or that which was given to him by men, But that which was given to Him through the revelation of the Holy Spirit... the tradition of studying and rightly dividing the word of God's truth about Christ.
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves." (Heb. 13:17)
So scripture means nothing. We are called to submit to our elders.We are to belong to a church for fellowship and teaching.If you are truly saved, God will direct you to the church you belong in. The bible also gives direction for the true church. Now days it is harder and harder to find a true church.
35,000 churches...all different...all "teaching" what Christ has "commanded" them. How's that worked out so far?
James replies:
Well, lets see. 35,000 churches and NONE of them have an army of pedophile and homosexuals posing as Priests.
NONE OF THEM have statues in the sanctuary, and ask people to bow down to them.
NONE OF THEM have the ridiculous fantasy known as "the Mass" which takes the Lord's Supper and turns it into a bizarre ceremony of mysticism.
NONE OF THEM have Jesus hanging on the cross, because Jesus is IN HEAVEN, AND HIS WORK IS ACCOMPLISHED.
NONE OF THEM teach that we should worship Mary, and PRAY TO OTHER Christians.
And most importantly NONE OF THEM teach salvation by faith plus works! The teach justification by faith ALONE, which is the center of the Christian faith.
So, How is the Reformation working out so far?
It is amazingly muscular, and Protestantism is obviously the home of Real Christians.
Yes, in America there is need of Reformation, but that is really possible because we do not follow Papism. We put Scripture BEFORE what any Pope would say.
James throw some stones, your response is simply one that indicate the nature of a dead man in his sins, and what about pastors that have never been born again.
ARCH SAID: Reread what Pauls said about the Traditions that he wanted "passed on" to "Trustworthy" Elders. Do you know any of them?
ELLA SAYS:Paul is speaking about passing on the gospel to trustworthy men of God who will teach the same Docrtine of Christ that he and the other apostles tauth in the churches...passing on a church traditions of teaching isn't worng, its only wrong when what is passed on and that which is taught is in oppsition to what God teaches. If what is being taught is in err of God's word then it should not be passed on, but corrected... This is Paul's point.
The Bibles tells us that the apostles taught the people just as Jesus had given it to them which was the Doctrine of Christ, all that Jesus taugth them, and all that they had learned from Him.
When church doctrines and teachings, and leaders are placed high ABOVE the Word of God, and what is in God's word this is err.When what is being taught and preached in the church is in conflict and in disregards with what God speaks in holy acriptures in God's Word of truth, this is err.
Again, Arch when you quote anyone or what God says please learn to quote the whole passage or sentence of a person for context and content... prespective is the key.
NIV) 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15: But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings(tradition) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
NJK) 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
*** I truly pray & hope you are not serious with this comment...for if Scripture means nothing to you based on the verse you gave of submitting to elders and authority...then you are saying the "Word"...Christ Jesus means nothing...thats a real shame...:glow:...xo
You are difficult to Understand. I am not sure what the additional Verses did for that Scripture.
I mean�simply�The Apostles taught their Disciples what Christ Taught them and told them to �Hold Fast to these Traditions�� and those in turn Taught their Disciples�and so forth and so forth. At a certain Point there were Thousands upon Thousands of Christians � all Filled with The Holy Spirit. All Taught the Same Gospel and the Same Truths that Jesus Taught The Apostles.
If ANY �Elder� or Bishop�Taught anything that was �Even a little� Different than what The Church knew to be The Truth�Rome would send�first a Letter�than Envoys to Investigate.
There are Letters around as early as 80 AD�from Clement to one of the Churches�warning of �false prophets�.
My Point is that if any one did �stray� from the Truth�they were JUMPED on and Dealt with. Plus Christ PROMISED that His Church would not be Corrupted by �the gates of hades�. Christ PROMISED that She would be here when He Returned.
That Tradition�Plus Holy Scripture is what Constitutes The Full Deposit of Faith. That is why Infant Baptism has been Practiced since The Early Church�because if it were not what Christ Wanted�The Church would not have Allowed it.
God throughout The Bible has Never Cared about the Stature of Man. God has never Needed Man to be Tall and Smart or Physically Fit and Sound!
No�God seems to take the Small of Stature or Weak of Mind. God has Chosen Men with Affirmatives or Ailments. David was small of Stature. Joseph was the Youngest. Moses was ��"slow of speech, and of a slow tongue".
So you see it is not the Man or Woman�but it is God that Accomplishes things. When a Christian Heals someone by the �Laying of Hands��it is not that person�s Hands that did the Healing � but it is rather � The Holy Spirit.
The Church is run by Men�they have made many Mistakes. While I disagree that you could call the number of priests that committed those Heinous Crimes��a army��there were much too many. The Church will Continue.
How does the saying go�you �dance with who Brought you to the Dance�?
Non-Catholics will Remain Non-Catholics. They will Teach their Childrens to be Non-Catholics and it will Continue onwards. Neither have a Monopoly on Heaven.
As for The Mass�I find it a Very Moving and Wonderous thing! God is so Amazing. The Mysteries of Faith�The Virgin Birth�The Crucifixion�The Resurrection�The Ascension. The Mass is another. It�s been Celebrated for 2,000 years. In the Early Church it was an All Day Affair.
When you Truly Believe in The Presence of Christ�in The Eucharist�and to Receive that Sacrament�is an Awesome Incredible Feeling! To know that this has been done for 2,000 years and to Think of Having Christ Inside of You is�hard to Explain.
John 6:53
New International Version (NIV)
53 Jesus said to them, �Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
I really do feel sadden that some of you have never Experienced this Feeling. I am sorry that The Mass frightens you�or intimidates you. It is not as entertaining as some services I�ve been to�most Catholic Churches do not have big bands or choirs and most Priests do not get very Loud or theatrical.
We don�t Venerate statues. They are merely Symbols�much like you might have photos of Loved ones on your mantle or a statute of Jeff Gordon in your den.
We don�t worship Mary�The Church forbids it�though some do cross that line�because Mary was an Awesome Woman�Mother�whose Heart Pumped Her Blood through The Immaculate Heart of Her Son Jesus.
There are many things that we do and Have that cannot be �Specifically� Found in Scripture�Especially in your Bible � which is missing Books. That�s alright though�I don�t think that you really need them to get to Heaven�although they do make for a Richer Fuller Spiritual Life.
I only Hope and Pray�that by my bringing up this subject�and any other Doctrine�that you at least will have thought about what I proposed. Everything I do here�is because�I do Love you all. I know I can be Caustic and Sarcastic � I have actually taken Correspondence Courses on
�How to be Sarcastic and Caustic and Lose Friends�.
But in Truth My Hope has Always been to Share my Good Fortune with All of You! I hope that One day all of you will Know just what it is Like to Actually be Fed by
2 Timothy 3:16; & 2 Tim 4:3,4: � **ALL SCRIPTURE** is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.... For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Matthew 1:24,25: When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her **UNTIL** she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Mark 6:1,3:Jesus left and went to His hometown...and began to teach...They asked, "Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't His sisters here with us?"
Mark 3:31-34: Then Jesus' mother and BROTHERS arrived. Standing outside...A crowd was sitting around Him, and they told Him, "Your mother and BROTHERS are outside looking for you." "Who are My mother and my brothers?" Jesus asked. Then He looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother!"
Matthew 6:6,9-11: Jesus says, �When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your **Father**, who is unseen. Then your **Father**, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you ...This then is how you should pray: �Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name, your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.....� Is there even one instance where a believer prayed to someone other than the **Father** in the OT or the NT?? Answer; ZERO! What church:devil: had its evil leader:devil: decree that it is OK to pray to and worship Mary, a human being, who was a sinless VIRGIN??
I Timothy 3:1-5:If anyone sets his heart on being an Overseer or Bishop, he desires a noble task. Now the Overseer or Bishop must be the husband of but one wife.....He must manage his own family well..If anyone does no know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church? I Tim 3:12 and Titus 1:6: Deacons and Elders should also be the husband of but one wife. I Corinthians 9:5: Paul said �Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other Apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas {PETER} What church:devil: became famous for having thousands of their unmarried priests fondle and seduce hundreds of thousands of innocent and trusting children??
Matthew 23:9: Jesus says, �Do not call ANYONE on earth 'father,' for you have ONE {Spiritual} Father, and He is in Heaven!!� What Church:devil: calls all their priests spiritual �Fathers�?? And their Satanic leader:devil: �Holy Father�??
This Church actually claim that they do not worship Mary but what are all these "Hail Mary's" all about??? Actually this Church worships and prays to Mary far more than they worship Jesus and His Father combined even though God's Word commands us over 100 times to Worship and pray to GOD ALONE
Hebrews 9:15,26b-28: Christ is the mediator of a NEW COVENANT so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that He has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant...But now He has APPEARED ONCE FOR ALL at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the SACRIFICE of Himself... so Christ was SACRIFICED ONCE to take away the sins of many people, and He will *APPEAR* a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. Hebrews 10:10: �We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus **ONCE FOR ALL**!!�
Now there are some who believe that Jesus has to die every day except Good Friday to take away sins and that Satanic priests:devil: have the power to change wine into the blood of Jesus and wafers into the body of Jesus which they eat.
Sounds like a great church for cannibals and vampires.
Rev 22:16,18,19: Jesus says, �I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give *YOU* {The Greek for YOU is plural} this testimony *FOR* the CHURCHES.�... �I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone **ADDS** anything to them, God will add to him the plagues {Including eternal torment in Hell} described in this book. And if anyone **TAKES WORD AWAY** from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book.�
and once again...Prophetic...De-ja-vu...DE-Ja-vu...DE-JA-VU...:purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel::purpleangel::angel:...xo
