What it all comes down to is this. You have to answer one question: is man radically depraved?
That�s the only question you have to ask. Because if he is truly dead in his sin, if he truly hates God, if all men are equally evil, and they are, then the question is, how are you standing here right now believing God while some of your friends who are more moral than you still hate Him?
What happened?
If you say you opened up your heart, I�ll say, �no you didn�t� because the Bible says God opened up Lydia�s heart.
If you say, �well I repented.� Well, repentance is an evangelical grace in all the confessions. That means it comes from God as a gift.
If you say, �well I believe.� Ephesians 2. It is also a gift.
Questioner: (I know the Bible says that no man can come to God unless he is drawn by God. I know that well. My question is, �is the offer of salvation for all men or did God sit back in eternity and say, �its for you, you, you and you, and you, you, you, you are going to go to hell�?)
See, first of all, your problem is this: let�s say there�s no election. None. Ok. Let�s just start fresh and say there�s no election. Alright.. now, let�s say that men really are radically depraved and no man can come to God unless God draws him. So God comes down to every man and says �Anyone who will bow the knee to Me, anyone who will accept my Son as their Savior will be saved.� Since every man is radically depraved, they all hate God, they all blaspheme Him, turn around walk away and go to hell. The whole world goes to hell. Is that God�s fault?
(No.)
Alright, let�s say that really is the reality. Let�s say the Bible is true and that men hate God that much. So, who is going to be saved? Absolutely no one!
And if God saved no one because everyone is evil and rejects Him, is God wrong in doing that?
No, so that is what you�ve got without election � you�ve got the whole world hating God and going to hell.
That�s it�. and the other option is this:
Among these evil men, for His own glory and to demonstrate His own kindness before the foundation of the world He chooses a group of men out of there to demonstrate His glory in them. Is that wrong?
Did He rip the other men off?
What did He do?
You�ve got two choices: God saves a group of people by His own sovereignty or everybody goes to hell. Everybody!
Because men are that evil.
See, what you need to realize is that if God, right now, were to throw open the door of hell and say �everyone who wants out of hell, the only thing you have to do is bow your knee to Me and recognize My Lordship.� they�ll slam the door and stay in hell.
See what you don�t realize because of the humanistic Christianity in America, you don�t realize that men are really evil. They really ARE evil.
I�ll give you an example.
Have any of you seen Lord of the Rings?
Saruman makes these orcs, they come out of the ground evil. EVIL.
Alright, Aragon, all the heroes in the movie, slaughter them like they were insects. Slaughter them. And every time an orc gets killed, what do you do�
Yay! (Cheer)
Why?
Because those orcs really are evil. They are evil.
There�s your problem. You don�t think men are.
Men really are evil. Men really deserve hell. They really do.
(I believe that)
We talk about the doctrine of inability � that men cannot come to God. Jesus said that. Alright, men CANNOT come to God.
Now, if you say, �if men can�t come to God then how can God judge them? Its like judging a blind man because he can�t read. If men can�t come to God then man is not a culprit, he�s a victim.�
But here�s what you have to understand. Men cannot come to God because they WILL not come to God and they will not come to God because they hate Him� and therefore they are responsible.
Men are evil. God is good.
So, men hate God, they hate His law, they hate everything about Him. OK.
It says of Joseph�s brothers: they could not speak to him peaceably.
Now they spoke Aramaic. Why couldn�t they speak to him peaceably?
They could not because they hated him.
Alright, that�s why no man will ever come to God.
If God comes down and says, �Alright, everybody make their choice.�
No one is coming to God.
Why?
They hate Him.
And that is why they are judged, for their moral inability. Their inability is moral. They really hate God.
So, you�ve got the whole human race, every one of them is fallen, everyone of them hates God. God comes down to them and says, �who wants to be saved?�
Everybody blasphemes the name of God, walks into hell and slams the door. That�s what you�ve got. Because men really are evil.
and if out of that God says, �For My own glory, I am going to redeem a people and give them to My Son, by My own choice and by My own Sovereign election. He�s done wrong to no one.
Now how does He save them?
Here�s a question: Are you spiritually dead prior to salvation?
(Yes)
Well then, how did you come to Christ?
If you are spiritually blind, how do you now see Him?
(He draws me unto Him)
But you�re a dead man.
If some of it has to do with you, you�re a dead man.
If God calls your name, you hate Him. You�re not going to come, you�re going to run farther away from Him.
That is why in all.. now listen very carefully� in all the Christian confessions � the old Christian confessions, in the Reformation, early Baptist confessions, � you have been raised on this� �If you believe in Jesus you can be born again.�
ALL the early Baptist confessions say you must be born again in order to believe in Jesus.
That�s the difference.
Because if I tell a dead man, �Look, you�re dead, but there�s a hospital over here, where they can put some electrodes on you � so get up and follow me over to the hospital.�
Its nonsensical. He�s dead.
If he can get up he doesn�t need to go to the hospital.
So when Jesus looked at Lazarus and said, �Lazarus come forth� � there�s a problem � Lazarus is dead.
How does he hear the command?
The command was not only to be given, the moment the command is given, Lazarus must be resurrected to be able to even hear the command and respond.
That�s why you probably heard the Gospel for many years, and you�re sitting there and you didn�t care, it�s no big deal, maybe you made a profession of faith.. nothing.
And then one day, the Gospel is preached and wooosh � the blinders are taken off and not only that but you want Him.
Some people say, �well, what God does is He draws us to a certain point and then gives us a choice.�
There�s a problem. If God only illuminates the mind of the sinner then the more the sinner sees God, the more he�s going to hate Him.
So He not only illuminates the mind, He changes the heart.
With a new heart, for the first time you want Jesus and say, �I love Him and am irresistibly drawn to Him. I want Him more than anything.�
If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).
Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)
Now, go ahead and tell us again PhillipJohn how you saved yourself by your decision, and how you really are your own saviour because after all, YOU made the decision.
I will say "By the Grace of God I am what I am".
and you can go on and brag about your free will, and how some supposed goodness inside you was what REALLY saved you!
The Bible says:
"What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7),
And PhillipJohn will say, "Why my wonderful and all powerful FREE WILL, with which I chose Jesus!"
Jesus told Nicodemus that you cannot 'enter or see' the kingdom of God unless you are already born again.
And phillipJohn will say, "NO! I (the great I!) made myself to be born again with my freewill decision!!
I could go on but why? You contradict Scripture over and over, JUST SO YOU CAN HAVE SOME OF THE GLORY THAT BELONGS TO GOD!!
No James most are aware of that tactic you use, Phillip is not the word of God and he has never said he was, but we as a child of God are alive unto God by his Spirit, and we are also one with the word of God.
What it all comes down to is this. You have to answer one question: is man radically depraved?
*** Ummmm...:rolleyes:....What it ALL comes down to is...Do you Believe...have Faith in...and Accept Jesus as LORD and Savoiur ???...This is the Most Important question to Answer...Now thats RADICAL !!!!....:peace:....xo
(Your Post) � But here�s what you have to understand. Men cannot come to God because they WILL not come to God and they will not come to God because they hate Him� and therefore they are responsible.�
James,
You believe that God Causes Everything to Happen (Predetermination). If God does Cause Everything to Happen�then Man is they way he is Because
God Created them That Way! God Created Mankind DEPRAVED! So that sentence should read
�Men cannot come to God because God CREATED them that way�and if God CREATED them That Way�then man cannot come to God because God CREATED them That Way and therefore God is Responsible.�
Do you see How Ridiculous that Sounds and Is?
With your �beliefs��God has to FORCE�sorry�Cause�mankind to believe in Him because God CREATED mankind totally without Free Will and the Only Way they will Turn to God is if God FORCES�sorry�CAUSES them to do so.
Round and Round we go. Which came First � Man�s Total Depravity or � God Creating Mankind Totally Depraved?
The ABSURDITY of this �belief� of yours and Calvinists is Mind Boggling!
With your �beliefs��God has to FORCE�sorry�Cause�mankind to believe in Him because God CREATED mankind totally without Free Will and the Only Way they will Turn to God is if God FORCES�sorry�CAUSES them to do so because God Made them That Way to Begin with.
The problem with your observation Archimedes is that the scriptures clearly state that this is the case wether you like it or not.If God is omnipotent then everything that anyone does or has done in the past is no surprise and in fact seen by God before hand.Even Satans rebellion did not shock God,He knew it before he created him.So,if god is truly All knowing,All seeing,All powerful,then this is undeniable.This passage explains it well.
For this is what the promise said: r�About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.� 10 And not only so, but salso when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad�in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of thim who calls�12 she was told, u�The older will serve the younger.� 13 As it is written, v�Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.�
14 What shall we say then? wIs there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x�I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.� 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y�For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.� 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, �Why does he still find fault? For zwho can resist his will?� 20 But who are you, O man, ato answer back to God? bWill what is molded say to its molder, �Why have you made me like this?� 21 cHas the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience evessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he hhas prepared beforehand for glory�24 even us whom he ihas called, jnot from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
Steve we have heard all what Calvin has to say, but for me and my house our ear is to the lord Jesus, and he is not speaking calvin, he is speaking his word, he gave us the Holy Spirit.
Not Quite sure what you are getting at�but�yes�I agree that God can �See� into The Future. That is why God can �Know� just who will or will not Choose to Believe or Disbelieve.
God calls them Chosen � Elect�but whatever God Chooses to call them�they are still The Ones that Decide on their Own Free Will�to Choose God.
God does not select them before birth and �Crams� The Holy Spirit down their throats and Forces them to Believe�Forces them to Love Him. That is Preposterous! (Suffering Succatash!)
�even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, �� � ESV
�For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will��� � NIV
��just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,�� � NKJV
�For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will ��� � NET
�� just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,�� � NASB
�Long before he laid down earth�s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love. Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!)� � MSG
�Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.� � NLT
You make the same Mistake that All Calvinist Have to make�and that is Total Depravity (Man has No Free Will). This Doctrine is the �Lynchpin� that holds all 5 Points of Calvinism together.
You have to Start with Total Depravity (T) in order to say that man cannot Choose God�therefore God has to Choose Man (U). Subsequently�for God to be able to not only Choose man but also change his Nature (without man doing anything)�God must be the One Doing Everything (Predetermination) (are you with me?).
The other Points just Follow�but are Absolutely DEPENDENT on Total Depravity.
To continue�God does have Sovereignty. Nothing and No One can Resist God�s Will. That being said�God may Desire something for us�but God Will not FORCE us to Accept it. God wants a Mutual Relationship with us. Not One of Dictator over His Subjects�but Rather One of FATHER and His Children.
God Knows which of us Will Believe and Obey and thusly God can CHOOSE us before we are born�Before The Creation of this World even.
God does not Arbitrally Choose whom He is going to Save and Whom He is going to Doom. And God does not Force�sorry�Cause someone to sin in order to be able to Doom them to Hell!
Because God is Sovereign�God can ALLOW man Free Will by Creating a �New Man� (Reborn Man) through Baptism�which a Calvinist has to Deny its Efficacy or Admit Regeneration and being Reborn.
