Lets start with 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, ...as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Now if I just took that verse by itself I would run to the Universal Redemption side. It certainly shows that it is not God's intention for any of his creatures to suffer an eternity apart from him.
Then there is John 12:30 Jesus said, �This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ...all people to myself.� 12:33 (Now he said this to indicate clearly what kind of death he was going to die.)
So if God does not want any to perish and it is his intention to draw all men to himself, but somehow this doesn't seem to be enough for some, the answer "the free will of man" to choose not to believe. We all get to make the choice because... God draws us to him and gives us all that we need in order to freely make the choice. This for the free will side is where the mystery stuff happens. How is it that God is able to enlighten man's soul to the brink of knowledge and faith, it leaves only one thing left to do, believe or not, the work is already done, all the effort spent, all the issues set aside, only one thing remains between God and man.
Now if I take that verse well, it sounds like all men will be saved. But there are other verses that say different.
Response:
I can understand how you may have drawn the conclusions you have...but lets look at each in context.
The desire for "all to come to repentance" is an imperative. The Bible says "God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel" (Acts 17:30) i.e. the repentance of man is an imperative (command), not an indicative (fact). A command does not show what we can do, but what we OUGHT to do. it is a conditional statement that asserts nothing indicatively. It would be a contradiction to say that God commands something that he does not want us to do. Likewise statements such as "be perfect", "if you are willing", "if you hear", "if you do" declare, not man's ability, but his duty. To infer "free will" from this, therefore, is simply importing a meaning in the text that is not there and confusing indicatives (facts) with imperatives (commands). Of course we agree that God wants all men to obey the command to repent. This is his preceptive will about what he wants man to do. Is says nothing about what God has done, or will do, or about man's ability. The command to believe does not imply ability. For instance, if I borrowed $100 million to establish a new company and instead squandered it in Vegas, my inability to repay the loan does not alleviate me of responsibility to do so. Likewise before God we owe a debt we cannot repay. Faith and good works are equally difficult without renewal of heart (Ezek 36:26).
Consider this ..."Does it follow from God's command: 'turn' that therefore you can turn? Does it follow from "'Love the Lord thy God with all your heart' (Deut 6.5) that therefore you can love Him with all your heart? Does this mean you believe 'free-will' does not need the grace of God, but can do all things by its own power? It does not follow from this that man is converted by his own power, nor does it say so in the Text; they simply says: "if you will turn, telling man what he ought to do.
Synergists,teach that 'salvation depends on human will', but the Bible teaches that (and I quote) 'it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Rom 9:16) God commands repentance and belief but no do so ... only by his mercy do they come.
As for for the Text "drawing all men to himself" (John 12:33) I believe you should take a closer look at the context. Jesus is speaking to Greeks, not Jews and it is clear from the context that he is referring to all nations. So when he says "when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself", he simply means that he will draw not only Jews but the Gentile nations as well, fulfilling the promise to Abraham that through him all the families of the earth will be blessed. In other words, Jesus does not say he will draw all men on earth without exception, but rather, he will draw all men without distinction. So because the context and use of words differs, it is inappropriate to interpret John 6 in light of John 12 ... (different conversations).
Actually, in case you think I made this "without distinction" thing up, the apostle John often speaks this same way of nations and groups; consider John 11:49-52"
"But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
In other words, Caiaphas is referring to all people without distinction from every nation, not all people without exception on the earth. Not Jews only, but Jews and Gentiles who are scattered on the whole earth from every nation.
Also, the text in John 6 which says ALL the Father gives to Jesus will come to him (6:37) makes your interpretation from John 12 an impossible supposition. Look carefully at John 6:65 -- No one can believe unless God grants it (universal negative) (John 6:37) All that the Father gives to me WILL come to me (universal positive). In other words, together it plainly states that no one can believe in Jesus unless God grants it and all whom he grants in Christ will believe. Jesus is careful to say that the Father first gives people to the son prior to their believing in him (V. 37). These versus dismantle any possibility that it means he will draw all without exception. John 6:44 must, therefore, be read in light of John 6:37 (in context), not John 12.
We must thank God for all that we have, including the new heart to believe. We must not think that it was due to our own wisdom or prudence, or good will that God then responded to us. Grace is not a reward for faith, it is the cause of it.
Note: I recognize another way of understanding 2 Peter 3:9 as speaking in context of the elect. I do not discount this interpretation. Many Reformed theologians point this out. But it is also true that God wants all to obey his command to repent - speaking of man's duty, not God's will of decree.
By all your saying, reasoning is apparent that man says the natural can not know God, but then he as a natura man he,l trys to reason God's word!!!
With the mind you reason away from truth!!
With the heart man believeth unto rightousness, very simple.
Here is a great example to the Church, concerning how one enters the family of God:
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 � For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
IT IS ALWAYS YOUR CHOICE, YOU EITHER HONOR THE LORD WITH YOUR WORDS OR YOU DISHONOR HIM.
IT IS YOUR CHOICE.....
ME:
Peej,are you honoring the GOD of Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob when you bash people,call them the devil,and constantly critisize almost everyone here except your line of cronies.
Boy you sure are Hypocritical,Oh but you will say that is of GOD,and you have Faith.
John Hendryx is a Pedant that is an Expert WordSmith and Creator of Sophistry.
Hendryx speaks about God�s Imperative Will�what God Wants for us�what God Commands us to do and Indicatives�Facts�factual Statements. Hendryx accuses us of confusing indicatives (facts) with imperatives (commands).
He also says���statements such as "be perfect", "if you are willing", "if you hear", "if you do" declare, not man's ability, but his duty. To infer "free will" from this, therefore, is simply importing a meaning in the text that is not there � (End Quote)
That is Specious Logic! God Does not Delude�neither Himself nor His Children. Why would God Ask a Question that Indicates a CHOICE on Mankind�s part�if Mankind is UNABLE to Choose FREELY? There are Many Verses in Scripture that Point to where Man is Asked to CHOOSE.
Hendryx does not Realize it but he goes on to Prove the Opposite of his Point.
(Hendryx) �Of course we agree that God wants all men to obey the command to repent. This is his preceptive will about what he wants man to do. Is says nothing about what God has done, or will do, or about man's ability. The command to believe does not imply ability. For instance, if I borrowed $100 million to establish a new company and instead squandered it in Vegas, my inability to repay the loan does not alleviate me of responsibility to do so.� (End)
The Very Fact that he �Squandered� the Money in Vegas�shows a Free Will Decision to do so!
Not Everything in his Article is False�Hendryx does intersperse some Truths into jis Article�but it is left to the Reader to �Sift� them out.
Hendryx claims that ��Synergists,teach that 'salvation depends on human will',��
I don�t know what a �Synergist� is�but that Statement is False. Salvation is All God�s Grace. Man cannot and Does Not have anything to do with Salvation. God Does Not Want ANYONE to be FORCED to LOVE HIM. God Wants A Mutual Relationship.
Hendryx goes on to �Spin and Twist� Scripture with this:
(Hendryx) Look carefully at John 6:65 -- No one can believe unless God grants it (universal negative) (John 6:37) All that the Father gives to me WILL come to me (universal positive). In other words, together it plainly states that no one can believe in Jesus unless God grants it and all whom he grants in Christ will believe. Jesus is careful to say that the Father first gives people to the son prior to their believing in him (V. 37). These versus dismantle any possibility that it means he will draw all without exception. John 6:44 must, therefore, be read in light of John 6:37 (in context), not John 12. (End)
John 6:65
New International Version (NIV)
65 He went on to say, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.�
John 6:37
New International Version (NIV)
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
This is Just Clever Use of �Smoke and Mirrors� and �The Wizard of Oz� Maneuver. These Verses Taken out of Context can be made to �Mean� something else. When Taken �In Context� with Verse John 6:45
John 6:45
45 It is written in the Prophets: �They will all be taught by God.�[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Those Verses Speak to Anyone HEARING God�s Word and �LEARNING From It��Comes to Jesus.! Big Difference�Don�t you Agree?
