"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 22 Sep, 2011 09:20 AM
As you know Luther did not believe that the Books of James or Revelation was part of God's Inspired Word. And Calvinwrote an Intstute on every book of the Protestant Bible except Revelation and also did not believe that Revelation was part of God's Word.
Since Revelation is now a part of every Protestant Bible present day Calvinists will never admit theat they don't believe Revelation is part of God's inspired Word. However I went to Calvin College and have never heard a Reformed or Christian Reformed preacher preach on the Book of Revelation?? They teach that Revelation is just a symbolic fairy tale which you can interpret symbolically in any way your little ole heart desires.
**GOD'S WORD IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION**
Revelation 1:3: �Blessed is the one who reads the Words of this Prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it!�
Revelation 3:14: Jesus says, �These are the Words of the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Ruler of God's creation!�
Revelation 22:9,10: The angel said to John, �I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets and all who keep the Words of this Book!� Then he told me, �Do not seal up the Words of the Prophecy of this Book!�
Revelation 22:7,12,13,16,18,19: Jesus says, �Behold I am coming soon. Blessed is he who keeps the Words of the Prophecy in this Book...Behold, I am coming soon. My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done... I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End....I, Jesus have sent My angel to give *YOU {�You� here is Plural} this testimony {All of Revelation} **FOR THE CHURCHES**!!.... I warn everyone who hears the Words of the Prophecy of this Book: If anyone **ADDS** anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book {Including eternal Hell} And if any one **TAKES WORDS AWAY** from this Book of Prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City {The New Jerusalem}, which are described in this Book!�
Deuteronomy 4:2: The Lord says, �Do not **ADD** to what I command you and do not **SUBTRACT** from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God!�
WILL ALL ISRAEL BE SAVED BY THE END OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION??
Luke 21:24: Jesus says, �Jerusalem shall be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are complete.� The Times of the Gentiles was from AD 70 to June 7th, 1967 when the Jews again gained complete control of Jerusalem after 1897 years. In 1948 the Jordanian Gentiles destroyed 34 of the 35 Jewish Synagogues in Jerusalem and kicked out almost all the Jews. Obama would like Israel to return to its 1948 borders.
During the Great Tribulation Moses and Elijah will most likely witness miraculously to people in the uttermost parts of the earth in all 6,000 languages. Presently the Bible has been translated into about 2,000 languages from the inspired Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and faith comes from hearing or reading the sword of the spirit which is the Word of God. The Bible still has not been translated into about 4,000 languages and Rev 5:9b and Rev 7:9,13,14 must be completely fulfilled. Surely the courageous tribulation saints will help Moses and Elijah spread God's Word. They will do a fantastic job since according to Rev 7:9,14 there will be a great multitude from EVERY TRIBE AND LANGUAGE who will be �washed in the Blood of the Lamb� during the Great Tribulation.
Rev 6:9-11: When He {Jesus} opened the 5th seal, I saw the souls of those who had been slain {Just like Jesus} because of the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, �How long until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?� The each of them was given a *WHITE ROBE*, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. Rev 7:9,13,14,15a,17a: �After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from *EVERY* NATION, TRIBE, PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb {Jesus}. They were wearing *WHITE ROBES*
�Then one of the {24} elders {Rev 4:4} asked me, �These in *WHITE ROBES*�who are they and where did they come from?�� And he said, �These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; {Martyrs just like Jesus} they have washed their robes and made them WHITE in the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* {Jesus}. They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night... The Lamb {Jesus} at the center of the throne will be their Shepherd.� {See Rev 12:11 & Rev 13:8-10}
This passage in Rev 7:9 above shows that the Great Tribulation will be mainly for Christians in *EVERY Gentile nation and not just Jacob�s Jewish trouble which absolutely contradicts the main thesis of the pre-trib fairy tale. Revelation 14:13: Then I heard a voice from heaven say {During the Great Trib}, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." Rev 12:11: �They {THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS} overcame him {Satan} by the *BLOOD OF THE LAMB* and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.�
Revelation 7:3,4: The angel said, �Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God,� Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the {12} tribes of Israel.
This event occurred just before the land and sea were harmed by the first 6 trumpet plagues in Rev chapters 8 & 9. Also occurring just before the first 6 trumpet plagues will be the scene in heaven above of martyrs from every nation in Rev 7:9-18. So it is completely obvious that the 144,000 Jews did NOT participate in the evangelizing of the Gentiles from every nation in the world. There are many who believe that the 144,000 Jews will then evangelize Jews through out the world and possibly only Jews will be saved during the rest of the Great Tribulation since Gentiles from every nation of the world will already be saved. According to Zechariah 12;10; 13:8,9: Two-thirds of the Jews will be struck down and perish but one-third will call on my name and will say, �The Lord is our God.�
Presently there are approximately 15 million Jews and about 2 % or 30,000 are Christians. During the Great Tribulation 10 million Jews will die and 5 million will be saved which is and additional 4 million 970 thousand if 30 thousand are now Christians.
Romans 11:25-29: I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part **until the full number of Gentiles has come in **{As per Rev 7:9,14 above}. ***AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED***, as it is written: {In Jeremiah 31:33,34} �The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob {Israel}. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.� As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned they are loved on account of the patriarchs {Moses, Abraham, David ,Joseph, Isaiah, Elijah etc etc etc}, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. {Read Romans 11:11-32 and Hebrews 11:39-40}
Acts 1:6-8: The Jewish disciples asked Jesus, �Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel??� Jesus said to them: �It is not for you to know the times and dates the Father has set by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and to the ends of the earth.!!� Matthew 24:14: Jesus says {During the Great Tribulation} �This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to **ALL NATIONS** and **THEN** the **END** will come!�
God also inspired 40 Jewish men to write every Word in God's Word in both the OT and NT. Jesus was 50 % Jewish and is called the King of the Jews 12 times in the NT and the 12 Apostles including Paul were all Jewish who brought the Gospel to the Gentiles in the 1st Century. The Israelites are called Jews 80 times in the OT beginning with the book of Esther about 600 BC and the Israelites are called Jews over 200 times in the NT.
Acts 2:5: �Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.� And on the day of Pentecost 3,000 Jews were saved as per Acts 2:5,14,41. John 4:22b: Jesus says, "Salvation is from the Jews.!" Matthew 2:1,2: Wise men from the East asked, �Where is the One who has been born King of the Jews?� Matthew 27:11: Pilate asked Jesus, �Are you the King of the Jews?� �Yes it is as you say,� Jesus replied!
God said to Abraham, in Genesis 17:8: �The whole land of Canaan I will be give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you.�
Quotes from Obama on May 20th, 2011: �Israel must learn do defend itself **BY ITSELF**!!� �Israel must return to **PRE-1967 BORDERS**!!� Nations from all over the world have heartily agreed with King Obama's 2 statements including the European Union, Russia and the United nations. Obama has also stated that he does not have to abide by the War Powers Act or the Constitution in declaring war thus making Obama a King with the power to make war against anyone he desires as long as he desires!
"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 22 Sep, 2011 10:47 AM
One thing for sure, Y'ALL had better MAKE SURE THAT YOU WILL BE SAVED instead of debating whether or not Israel will be saved!! That AIN'T YOUR BUSINESS, if you're not doing anything to saved Israel or anyone else with the gospel of Jesus Christ...
God's word is His word, and if He declares Israel will be saved there is NOT ONE thing anyone can say, or to deny His TRUTHS and He will do what He pleases and what He promises...
God's Word says what it says in every translation, and means what it says whether you agree or not, God's Word IS NOT your's to disagree, but to only believe because IT IS WRITTEN and no one can unwrtie it!...
New International Version - And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
New Living Translation - And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness. English Standard Version - And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, �The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob�;
New American Standard Bible - and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." International Standard Version In this way - all Israel will be saved. As it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
GOD'S WORD� Translation - In this way Israel as a whole will be saved, as Scripture says, "The Savior will come from Zion. He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
King James Bible - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
American King James Version - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: American Standard Version - and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Commentaries on Romans Chapter 11:26
Barnes' Notes on the Bible And so - That is, in this manner; or when the great abundance of the Gentiles shall be converted, then all Israel shall be saved. All Israel - All the Jews. It was a maxim among the Jews that "every Israelite should have part in the future age." (Grotius.) The apostle applies that maxim to his own purpose; and declares the sense in which it would be true. He does not mean to say that every Jew of every age would be saved; for he had proved that a large portion of them would be, in his time, rejected and lost.
But the time would come when, as a people, they would be recovered; when the nation would turn to God; and when it could be said of them that, as a nation, they were restored to the divine favor. It is not clear that he means that even then every individual of them would be saved, but the body of them; the great mass of the nation would be. Nor is it said when this would be. This is one of the things which "the Father hath put in his own power;" Acts 1:7. He has given us the assurance that it shall be done to encourage us in our efforts to save them; and he has concealed the time when it shall be, lest we should relax our efforts, or feel that no exertions were needed to accomplish what must take place at a fixed time.
Shall be saved - Shall be recovered from their rejection; be restored to the divine favor; become followers of the Messiah, and thus be saved as all other Christians are. As it is written - Isaiah 59:20. The quotation is not literally made, but the sense of the passage is preserved. The Hebrew is, "There shall come to Zion a Redeemer, and for those who turn from ungodliness in Jacob." There can be no doubt that Isaiah refers here to the times of the gospel.
Out of Zion - Zion was one of the bills of Jerusalem. On this was built the city of David. It came thus to denote, in general, the church, or people of God. And when it is said that the Redeemer should come out of Zion, it means that he should arise among that people, be descended from themselves, or should not be a foreigner.
The Septuagint, however render it, "the Redeemer shall come on account of Zion." So the Chaldee paraphrase, and the Latin Vulgate. And shall turn away ... - The Hebrew is, "to those forsaking un godliness in Jacob." The Septuagint has rendered it in the same manner as the apostle.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible And so all Israel shall be saved - Shall be brought into the way of salvation, by acknowledging the Messiah; for the word certainly does not mean eternal glory; for no man can conceive that a time will ever come in which every Jew then living, shall be taken to the kingdom of glory.
The term saved, as applied to the Israelites in different parts of the Scripture, signifies no more than their being gathered out of the nations of the world, separated to God, and possessed of the high privilege of being his peculiar people. And we know that this is the meaning of the term, by finding it applied to the body of the Israelites when this alone was the sum of their state. As it is written - The apostle supports what he advances on this head by a quotation from Scripture, which, in the main, is taken from Isaiah 59:20 : The Deliverer shall come out of Zion, and turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Now this cannot be understood of the manifestation of Christ among the Jews; or of the multitudes which were converted before, at, and for some time after, the day of pentecost; for these times were all past when the apostle wrote this epistle, which was probably about the 57th or 58th year of our Lord; and, as no remarkable conversion of that people has since taken place, therefore the fulfillment of this prophecy is yet to take place. In what manner Christ is to come out of Zion, and in what way or by what means he is to turn away transgression from Jacob, we cannot tell; and to attempt to conjecture, when the time, occasion, means, etc., are all in mystery, would be more than reprehensible. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible And so all Israel shall be saved,.... Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God's elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fullness" of them, Romans 11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; when, their number being as the sand of the sea, they shall come up out of the lands where they are dispersed, and appoint them one head, Christ, and great shall be the day of Jezreel; when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come.
There is a common saying among them , "all Israel shall have a part", or "portion in the world to come"; and in support of this they usually produce the passage in Isaiah 60:21, "thy people also shall be all righteous": yea, they even go so far as to say , "that hell fire will have no power over the transgressors of Israel;'' fancying, that every individual person of their nation will be saved; though they sometimes except such who deny the resurrection of the dead, and that the law is from heaven, or is an epicure, and he that reads foreign books, or is an enchanter, or pronounces the ineffable name: but the apostle is not to be understood with such a latitude; he refers to the last times, and to a very general conversion of them to the Messiah: as it is written, Isaiah 59:20, there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer: the words of the prophet are, "and the Redeemer shall come to Zion": by the Redeemer, or Deliverer, words of the same signification, is meant the Messiah, as the Jews themselves own, and apply this passage to him; who is the "Goel", or near kinsman of his people, to whom the right of their redemption belongs as man; and who as God was able to effect it, and, as God-man and Mediator, was every way qualified for it, and has obtained it for them: and whereas, in the prophet Isaiah, he is said to "come to", and by the apostle, "out of Zion", this may be reconciled by observing, that the servile letter sometimes signifies "from", as well as to, when it is put in the room of which instances may be given, as Exodus 16:1 compared with 2 Chronicles 11:4. Besides, the Messiah was to come out of Zion, as well as to come to it, according to Psalm 14:7; so that the apostle fitly expresses the faith and expectation of the old Jewish church in this citation: and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; in the prophet it is, "and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob", Isaiah 59:20.
The apostle follows the translation of the Septuagint, and which is favoured by the Chaldee paraphrase, which runs thus; "the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and to turn the rebellious ones of the house of Jacob to the law"; so that the Jew has no reason to charge the apostle with a perversion of the prophet's words, when they are cited so agreeably to their own Targumist: and the sense of them relates not to what Christ did on the cross, when the iniquities of his people were laid on him, and he bore them, and removed them all in one day from them; but to what he will do to the Jews in the latter day, in consequence thereof; he will convince them of their ungodliness, give them repentance for it and remission of it.
Scofield Reference Notes [1] Jacob Summary: Israel, Song named from the grandson of Abraham, was chosen for a fourfold mission: (1) To witness to the unity of God in the midst of universal idolatry Dt 6:4 Isa 43:10,12,
(2) to illustrate to the nations the blessedness of serving the true God Dt 33:26-29 1Chr 17:20,21 Ps 144:15.
(3) to receive, preserve, and transmit the Scripture Dt 4:5-8 Rom 3:1,2.
(4) to produce, as to His humanity, the Messiah Gen 3:15 12:3 22:18 28:10-14 49:10 2Sam 7:12-16 Isa 7:14 9:6 Mt 1:1 Rom 1:3.
According to the prophets, Israel, regathered from all nations, restored to her own land and converted, is yet to have her greatest earthly exaltation and glory. See "Kingdom (O.T.)" Gen 1:26 Zech 12:8. "Zech 12:8" N.T. Lk 1:31-33 1Cor 15:24."Davidic Covenant" "2 Sam 7:16".
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary 26, 27. And so all Israel shall be saved-To understand this great statement, as some still do, merely of such a gradual inbringing of individual Jews, that there shall at length remain none in unbelief, is to do manifest violence both to it and to the whole context. It can only mean the ultimate ingathering of Israel as a nation, in contrast with the present "remnant." (So Tholuck, Meyer, De Wette, Philippi, Alford, Hodge).
Three confirmations of this now follow: two from the prophets, and a third from the Abrahamic covenant itself. First, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall-or, according to what seems the true reading, without the "and"-"He shall" turn away ungodliness from Jacob-The apostle, having drawn his illustrations of man's sinfulness chiefly from Ps 14:1-7 and Isa 59:1-21, now seems to combine the language of the same two places regarding Israel's salvation from it [Bengel].
In the one place the Psalmist longs to see the "salvation of Israel coming out of Zion" (Ps 14:7); in the other, the prophet announces that "the Redeemer (or, 'Deliverer') shall come to (or 'for') Zion" (Isa 59:20).
But as all the glorious manifestations of Israel's God were regarded as issuing out of Zion, as the seat of His manifested glory (Ps 20:2; 110:2; Isa 31:9), the turn which the apostle gives to the words merely adds to them that familiar idea. And whereas the prophet announces that He "shall come to (or, 'for') them that turn from transgression in Jacob," while the apostle makes Him say that He shall come "to turn away ungodliness from Jacob," this is taken from the Septuagint version, and seems to indicate a different reading of the original text. The sense, however, is substantially the same in both.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 11:22-32 Of all judgments, spiritual judgments are the sorest; of these the apostle is here speaking. The restoration of the Jews is, in the course of things, far less improbable than the call of the Gentiles to be the children of Abraham; and though others now possess these privileges, it will not hinder their being admitted again. By rejecting the gospel, and by their indignation at its being preached to the Gentiles, the Jews were become enemies to God; yet they are still to be favoured for the sake of their pious fathers. Though at present they are enemies to the gospel, for their hatred to the Gentiles; yet, when God's time is come, that will no longer exist, and God's love to their fathers will be remembered. True grace seeks not to confine God's favour. Those who find mercy themselves, should endeavour that through their mercy others also may obtain mercy.
Not that the Jews will be restored to have their priesthood, and temple, and ceremonies again; an end is put to all these; but they are to be brought to believe in Christ, the true become one sheep-fold with the Gentiles, under Christ the Great Shepherd.
The captivities of Israel, their dispersion, and their being shut out from the church, are emblems of the believer's corrections for doing wrong; and the continued care of the Lord towards that people, and the final mercy and blessed restoration intended for them, show the patience and love of God. Isaiah 45:17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting. Isaiah 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD.
Jeremiah 31:1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people." Jeremiah 31:37 This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD. Joel 2:32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: all. Isa 11:11-16 45:17 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23 30:17-22 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41 33:24-26; Eze 34:22-31 37:21-28 39:25-29 Eze 40:1-48:35; Ho 3:5 Joe 3:16-21; Am 9:14,15; Mic 7:15-20; Zep 3:12-20; Zec 10:6-12 There. Ps 14:7 106:47; Isa 59:20 and shall. Mt 1:21 ;Ac 3:26; Titus 2:14
"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 22 Sep, 2011 12:52 PM
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3: 36
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10: 9-10 " I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
Christ not only brought us the truth, he himself is truth. When we believe on Christ we believe on the truth.
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thessalonians 2: 10-12
If our relationship, which involves affection to the object of the relationship, is not with the truth, that is, if you do not have a love for the truth, are not saved according to II Thessalonians 2: 10-12 If you know and love the truth, and your congregation and the preacher you are under do not accedpt that same truth, then there is no point in sticking around. Trying to convert them on their own turf will often just get you kicked out of the "synagogue."
If your relationship is with a congregation, then if you do not have a stronger relationship with the truth, you are likely to be in trouble with the truth.
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." I Timothy 2: 3-4
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." John 17: 19
But what is it that we need to believe in as part of being in Christ and receiving something of his mind (Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus) in us? And in being born again by the Holy Spirit in Christ, what is it we should believe about the teachings of the New Testament? What makes up the truth in II Thessalonians 2: 10-12 that we must have a love for in order to be saved?
Paul in Romans 6: 17 points us toward that answer. "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" II Timothy 4:3
Which doctrines of the New Testament are necessary to know and believe in? "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1: 6-8
It sounds like someone who is in another Gospel is not saved. Paul says if anyone endorses another gospel than that which he has preached, let him be accursed. It does not sound like someone who is accursed is saved.
What teachings make up the Gospel? A better question is which teachings in the New Testament can we be sure are not part of the Gospel that the apostles taught?
The Gospel includes many doctrines in addition to the story of the birth, teachings, death on the Cross and resurrection of Christ, and the end time prophecy that he will come again at the end of the tribulation. Many of Paul's teachings in Romans, Galatians, I and II Thessalonians, I and II Timothy, and elsewhere in his letters are part of the Gospel. Paul's teaching on the difference between physical Israel not reborn in Christ and Israel born again in him is important to the Gospel. So is his teaching that former Jews and former Gentiles are one in Christ. And so is the teaching of John 10: 16 that there is one fold and one sheperd over them. John 3: 1-6, on being born again, is central to the Gospel, since it is a vital part of the transformation of physical Israel into Israel reborn in Christ. The change in the promise involving Abraham from the physical - where entry into the Old Covenant was by physical descent - to its being changed to a spiritual promise in Galatians 3: 16-29, where all who are in Christ are now the spiritual seed of Abraham is vital to the New Covenant. Hebrews 10: 9 says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."
How important is it that we know and accept the doctrines of Christ? "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10.If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: " II John 1: 10-11
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 1: 3
The "church" has reduced the Gospel onced delivered unto the saints, as part of the leavening of the Gospel itself in the churches and now the falling away of II Thesslonians 2: 3. The "church" does not have the light of Christ, nor the Holy Spirit to lift up its members in the Spirit. What Paul says in Romans 8: 1-2, 6-9 could not be achieved by many in the church system because most are not led by the Spirit. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
And Colossians 1: 26-27 does not apply to many in the churches now. "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"
"Christ in you, the hope of glory," is an inspiring thought. But is this something inspiring to those of the churches?
Some postponement theology leaders have taught that the pre-trib rapture is the "hope of glory."
"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 22 Sep, 2011 01:43 PM
"All Israel Shall Be Saved,"
*** When GOD says it...it Happens...No Ifs ~ Ands or Buts About it...Isa 55:11 ~ "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."...xo
"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 22 Sep, 2011 06:40 PM
Yes, but what and who is Israel?
Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says of classical dispensationalism
that the: "basic primise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God
expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction
throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, 1966,
pp.44-45.
J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two
distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan...These considerations
all arise from a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J.
Dwight Pentecost,
Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965)....
In 1936, Lewis S. Chafer, a classical dispensationalist, defined
Scofield's literalism as "The outstanding characteristic of the
dispensationalist is ... that he believes every statement of the Bible
and gives to it the plain, natural meaning its words imply." From:
L. S. Chafer, �Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 93, October
(1936), pp410, 417.
Charles C. Ryrie says "The word literal is perhaps not as good as
either the word normal or plain, but in any case it is interpretation
that does not spiritualize or allegorize as nondispensational
interpretation often does. The spiritualizing may be practiced to a
lesser or greater degree, but its presence in a system of
interpretation is indicative of a nondispensational approach." From:
Dispensationalism. Charles C. Ryrie. Moody Press, Chicago. 1995.
Dispensationalism says God has two groups of people, the "church"
and Israel. In dispensationalism there is only one Israel, or "all Israel." Therefore,
it cannot be true that "...they are not all Israel, which are of Israel,"
and the statement "...they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the
children of God" is false. Paul was also wrong in saying there are two Jerusalems, one "which
now is, and is in bondage with her children," and the other Jerusalem "which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all."
Would a dispensationalist insist that Jerusalem in Galatians 4: 25-26 be the literal, physical city of Jerusalem?
Thats one way to shoot down Galatians 4: 25-26 as a scripture saying there is not just one Israel, but two. Actually, there is one Israel which is saved. And the identity in Christ of all believers is in this one Israel.
But on this issue of which Israel Paul is talking about in Romans 11: 26, the dispensationalist does not use other scripture as his authority. he relies upon the theology.
John 1: 11 says "He came unto his own,
and his own received him not," and Matthew 8: 11-12, "And I say unto
you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down
with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the
children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
John 15: 6 says "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Matthew 3: 10 says "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
If these scriptures are understood, and not swept aside by an attempt to say their "context" causes them to say something other than the meaning of the metaphor or of the sentences, then these texts are relevant to which Israel Paul is talking about in Romans 11: 26. Remember, its important that Paul says "all Israel shall be saved." This is not just a rhetorical statement. How could all Israel be saved? They could not all be saved, unless the vast majority were brought back from the dead and from outer darkness (Matthew 8:11-12). "All Israel" was pruned down, something else dispensationalism does not seem to acknowledge. It was reduced to a small remnant (Romans 11: 5), which became Israel reborn in Christ, or saved Israel. The vast majority of "all Israel" was cut off (John 15: 6, Matthew 3: 10, and Romans 11: 20). This cut off Israel is mostly the Israel which dispensationalism honors as God's chosen people.
Since its not likely that "all Israel" would be saved at some point in the future, then by
"all Israel" Paul in Romans 11: 26 has a different Israel in mind than what he usually means by Israel, that is, physical Israel, which he calls Israel after the flesh in I Corinthians 10: 18. He uses the name "Israel" in Galatians 6: 16 again to refer to that other Israel, the Israel of God, to indicate which Israel he is talking about there.
"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 22 Sep, 2011 10:16 PM
Charles C. Ryrie???.. I don't put too much spiritual stock in what Ryrie has to say. I'm to do a paper for a theology dpctorate class on his book The Holy Spirit, and I really don't see how he can write on the Spirit of the Lord with much spiritual insight or anointing, because much of what he say is twisted and based on Calvin's views... after all he is/was a Calvinist who believed that a sinner is born again(regenerated) first before they can have faith and believe in Jesus Christ, and scripture does not says such ...
Halfback, Best thing you have need to do is STOP basing your faith wihtout spiritual knowledge and understanding in what all these men have to say. And depend on what the Holy Sprit of God REVEALS to you by REVELATION instead of INTERPRETATIONS OF MEN. OR YOUR OWN THOUGHTS... having knowledge in what man writes and not what God says ain't cuttin-it how much do you know spiritual about what God says, and how much anoitnign do you have from knowing God for yourpersonal self, instead of knowing about God from books others write....
Paul even warns us about filling our mind with too mcuh of other men's books and writing because it draws away from what God's word says, and the pwoer of the Holy Spirit to work in and through us... God is not impressed with your book knowledge, He is impress with your anoitnging from Him and you sure can't get anointed in books written by men trying to figure out God an what God says in His word.
Of course, I have problems with professors, but I always make the grade through Chirst speaking and writing what I know to be truth. Thsi is why I only read those theologians work that I can trace and find scripture to support what they soeak without a lot of ranting and many words... they get to the point of what God says and not their own foolish thought or coining doctriens that are not even in the Bible. Paul never preached or teached on anyone's doctrien except that of Jesus Christ.
What you have posted by Ryrie and the other is from THEIR INTERPRETATION, and there is a big difference in those theologians and what they speak that I posed because they are speaking by REVELATION WHICH IS SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE GIVEN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO THE SCRIPTURES...
"All Israel Shall Be Saved," The Debate On Romans 11: 25-26
Posted : 23 Sep, 2011 06:23 AM
"Halfback, Best thing you have need to do is STOP basing your faith wihtout spiritual knowledge and understanding in what all these men have to say. And depend on what the Holy Sprit of God REVEALS to you by REVELATION instead of INTERPRETATIONS OF MEN. OR YOUR OWN THOUGHTS... having knowledge in what man writes and not what God says ain't cuttin-it how much do you know spiritual about what God says, and how much anoitnign do you have from knowing God for your personal self, instead of knowing about God from books others write."
This is an excellent example of the use of the dialectic to argue against the use of scripture to interpret scripture. In this case it is a gross misrepresentation of what was said in the previous comment. You did not, as a few on the other two Christian forums have done, try to use scripture to argue that Romans 11: 26 refers to all physical Israel, that is, the vast majority of the physical descendants of Abraham. But you attacked the thesis that when scripture is used to interpret scripture Romans 11: 26 must mean a different Israel than physical Israel. You misrepresented the intention of quoting the earlier teachers of dispensationalism, which is to establish what this theology teaches and to contrast that with what scripture teaches. I did this because followers of dispensationalism will say they are not dispensationalists but will argue for its doctrines - because they have been conditioned over the years to believe the doctrines of this theology. Christians can say you are not following Ryrie, Pentecost, Chafer, Scofield or Darby all day, but this is not true because they got the doctrines of dispensatinalism from their preachers, from radio preachers, from the media, books and magazines and what Ryrie, Pentecost, and Chafer say in these quotes I gave is true of the starting positions of the theology.
And again, saying you dislike Ryrie is dialectic because it is not a didactic use of scripture, "It is written."
You say "I'm to do a paper for a theology doctorate class on his book The Holy Spirit, and I really don't see how he can write on the Spirit of the Lord with much spiritual insight or anointing, because much of what he say is twisted and based on Calvin's views."
I agree that the dispensationalists don't have the Holy Spirit and don't understand the Spirit's role in inspiring scripture and in helping Christians understand scripture. But Ryrie followed the basic starting points of dispensationalism, that God has two peoples, the "church" and Israel, by which they mean one Israel, physical Israel, and that interpretation of scripture must always be literal. What Ryrie says in the quotes was not Calvin's position.
If you are holding up Christian seminaries or Bible colleges as authorities, I also agree. They are authorities, which are the source of false doctrines. If you are in one, get out and come to Christ and his doctrines in the scriptures. If you are a seminary student, this gives you no intrerpretative authority at all. In fact, your use of the dialectic indicates you have been influenced by the type of communication and attitude change procedures used by the seminary professors. Revelation 13: 11 says the second beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. A lamb, representing his trying to appear as a Christian, has two horns? How does the dragon speak? In Genesis s the "serpent" "was more subtle than any beast in he field," and he used the dialectic on Eve, saying in effect lets talk about you eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. "Lets have a dialog." "And come to a consensus."
God's way of communicating has always been the didactic. When Satan tempted Christ in Matthew 4: 3-11, the dialectic didn't work on Jesus. It didn't move him one inch off his "thesis." He answered the devil with the didactic, "It is written" (Matthew 3: 10).
But Hegel and then Marx and Freud decided that there is no God and began to say there is no absolute
truth and no absolute morality. Everything is an opinion. Remember the "Hegelian dialectic?" Remember "dialectical materialism" in Marxism? Cultural Marxism came into the United States in the fifties in the form of the Frankfurt School who posed mostly as psychiatrists and psychologists. They operated from the major universities. And other influences came in, again from psychology, in the forties and fifties -the group dynamics movement made use of the dialectic. Then in the sixties clinical psychologists and others in the encounter group movement used the dialectic as an attitude change procedure. It soon spread to the academic world, to government, to politics especially, to the media especially (you can spot it in many things they say on National Propaganda Radio, NPR), and it was taken up by Christian leaders - and by the Christian seminaries where it is taught perhaps not totally intentional, but who knows. An interesting guy who is a combination of intellectual and Remnant evangelist, Dean Gotcher, has for a number of years been exposing the harmful effects of the dialectic, which he calls the "diaiprax."
