James, sweetheart, you mislead youself in your misinterpreting of what I said... I DID NOT say you were carnal because you DISAGREED WITH ME. So lets get this correct... I said you were CARNAL MINDED BECAUSE YOU DISAGREED AND QUESTIONED SCRIPTURE BASED ON YOUR OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS, AS TO WHAT GOD SAID IN REVELATION CHAPTER 7, regarding John's vision as to what the Holy Spirit told him...
So get it correct! and it is true, so admit it, if you misinterpret what I said, I can very well understand how you also misinterpret what God has written in His word.
Do I have need to pull up the statement in regards to your comment to show you your carnal mindedness, that PJ pointed out based on your comment about how could John see the 144,000 and count them?... and PJ stated to you that the Holy Spirit told John how many were in the group...
James, sweetheart, you mislead youself in your misinterpreting of what I said... I DID NOT say you were carnal because you DISAGREED WITH ME. So lets get this correct... I said you were CARNAL MINDED BECAUSE YOU DISAGREED AND QUESTIONED SCRIPTURE BASED ON YOUR OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS, AS TO WHAT GOD SAID IN REVELATION CHAPTER 7, regarding John's vision as to what the Holy Spirit told him...
James replies:
Which is a fancy way of saying I disagreed with you.
And look at what you just said:
"BECAUSE YOU DISAGREED AND QUESTIONED SCRIPTURE BASED ON YOUR OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS, AS TO WHAT GOD SAID IN REVELATION CHAPTER 7,"
ET, that is YOUR OPINION!
I "disagreed and questioned scripture"????
We are talking about quite possibly the hardest book to translate in the entire Bible, and because I stand with the majority of Christians throughout church history in my interpretation, I am disagreeing and questioning scripture?
I think it would be MUCH more accurate and reasonable to say that I just disagree with YOU.
ET said:
So get it correct! and it is true, so admit it, if you misinterpret what I said, I can very well understand how you also misinterpret what God has written in His word.
Do I have need to pull up the statement in regards to your comment to show you your carnal mindedness, that PJ pointed out based on your comment about how could John see the 144,000 and count them?... and PJ stated to you that the Holy Spirit told John how many were in the group...
James replies:
First off, I would like your definition of "Carnal".
This is one of those words like "spiritual" that get used for all kinds of things while never being defined.
If you are going to keep calling me that, I would like to at least know what you mean by it.
Secondly,
After John had heard the number 144000 � he only heard the number, we saw that was the number of the Church in all its perfection. Remember I pointed out that John did not see that, he only heard it. I have never seen the perfect church � I have never seen the Church of all ages, I have heard God say that He has got it. John heard it, but after he heard it in chapter 7 v 9, it says after these things, after he heard it, "behold I looked and saw a great multitude which no man could count from every nation, tribe, people tongue standing before the Throne, same place as these we are talking of, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, palm branches were in their hands, they cried with a loud voice �Salvation to our God Who sits on the Throne, and to the Lamb�".
All those elements are in the book we have just seen, it is the same Company, the only difference now is that John is seeing them. Only when he sees the whole Church, there is no number to it, he says that it is innumerable � myriads upon myriads of people. Do you see the difference? When I look at the Church I see it is without number. God looks at it and says it is perfect, not one is lost.
It is not a literal 144,000, that is not very many people at all.
Your one liners are not improving, or welcome, or even helping anyone.
1. There was NOTHING in my reply that had to do with the five points of doctrine nicknamed Calvinism.
2. There was NOTHING in your reply that even TOUCHED on what we were talking about.
3. I know I have made this suggestion to you before, and I am making it AGAIN....... How about you try and deal with the points being made in a thread, or sticking to the actual TOPIC in a thread???
James said: We are talking about quite possibly the hardest book to translate in the entire Bible, and because I stand with the majority of Christians throughout church history in my interpretation, I am disagreeing and questioning scripture?
I think it would be MUCH more accurate and reasonable to say that I just disagree with YOU.
ET said: So get it correct! and it is true, so admit it, if you misinterpret what I said, I can very well understand how you also misinterpret what God has written in His word. Do I have need to pull up the statement in regards to your comment to show you your carnal mindedness, that PJ pointed out based on your comment about how could John see the 144,000 and count them?... and PJ stated to you that the Holy Spirit told John how many were in the group...
James replies: First off, I would like your definition of "Carnal".
This is one of those words like "spiritual" that get used for all kinds of things while never being defined. If you are going to keep calling me that, I would like to at least know what you mean by it.
James continues: Secondly, After John had heard the number 144000 � he only heard the number, we saw that was the number of the Church in all its perfection. Remember I pointed out that John did not see that, he only heard it. I have never seen the perfect church � I have never seen the Church of all ages, I have heard God say that He has got it. John heard it, but after he heard it in chapter 7 v 9, it says after these things, after he heard it, "behold I looked and saw a great multitude which no man could count from every nation, tribe, people tongue standing before the Throne, same place as these we are talking of, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, palm branches were in their hands, they cried with a loud voice �Salvation to our God Who sits on the Throne, and to the Lamb�".
All those elements are in the book we have just seen, it is the same Company, the only difference now is that John is seeing them. Only when he sees the whole Church, there is no number to it, he says that it is innumerable � myriads upon myriads of people. Do you see the difference? When I look at the Church I see it is without number. God looks at it and says it is perfect, not one is lost.
It is not a literal 144,000, that is not very many people at all.
It is symbolic number that means completeness.
Ella says: James you do not stand with the majority of Christian throughout church history... maybe throughout YOUR Reformed church history , because Calvin COULD NOT UNDERSTAND the book of Revelation, so he and those of his group didn't even try to interpret it, nor could they because they could not spiritually understand what God was speaking about. Your Reformed church history IS NOT the wholeness of Christian church history. All that Calvin and even today, when those who DO NOT spiritual understand God's word, they always try to dismiss or write it off to mean what finite carnal understanding of scriptures as they know it to be saying, just becasue THEY don't spiritually understand and are trying THEMSELVES to interpret God's word and it is not coming to them by REVELATION thorugh the Holy Spirit explaining the Word to them.
Being carnal is not my definition of carnality, its what God call being carnal minded which is to be hostles against the things of God and what God has spoken in His word. It is seeing and understanding the spirutal things of God in the flesh and coming to your own understanding, wisodm and conclusion of what God means concerning scripture and the things of God...
James, When you siad it was not possible for John to have seen and counted 144,000 this is being carnal minded in your flesh, because you disagreed with what God said John HEARD, and not being spiritual. So if a person is not spiriutal, then they are carnal in the flesh.
Being carnal minded is the reason why you questioned how could John SEE 144,000, and I pointed out that John does not say he saw them he said he HEARD THEM, AND PJ pointed out that John could know the number because the Holy Spirit TOLD him how many were in the number.
Again, you are speaking in your carnal mind and disagreeing with God's word, when you say: It is not a literal 144,000, that is not very many people at all. It is symbolic number that means completeness.
James, You speak this because you do not understand Revelation nor the complete vision John has been given. This vision is about the end of everything as we know it on earth. And the 144,000 are as God has said and are the Jews from each 12 tribes OF PEOPLE Holy men of God... Then John tells us in verse ( about the multitude which will be ALL CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS frm every nation of people: Revelation 7
The Sealed of Israel - 144,000
1. After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, �Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.� And I HEARD the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
A Multitude from the Great Tribulation - This is the CHURCH OF THE SAVED, PRAISING AND WORSHIPPING GOD! jOHN LOOKS AROUND AND HE SEE THE CHURCH:
REVELATION 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, �Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!� All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: � Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.�
