Thread: Does it Make God a Moral Monster if He Ordains All that Comes to Pass?
Admin
Does it Make God a Moral Monster if He Ordains All that Comes to Pass?
Posted : 20 Oct, 2011 10:44 AM
Does it Make God a Moral Monster if He Ordains All that Comes to Pass?
A short response to Roger Olson by John Hendryx
One of the major premises of Roger Olson's new book "Against Calvinism" is his declaration that classic Reformed doctrine of meticulous providence makes God into a moral monster, or worse, indistinguishable from the devil. He asserts that the Calvinist cannot consistently affirm that God ordains all that comes to pass, including the wicked acts of men, without also making God the author of sin.
Does it follow? Not in the least. The charge that it makes God a moral monster if the God of Scripture ordains all things, even the wicked acts of men, rests ultimately on the assumption that unless we can explain his actions then we may sit in judgment upon Him. In other words, the charge rests purely upon rationalism and extra-biblical logic. We acknowledge that we cannot explain all of God's secret acts since God has chosen not to reveal many things about Himself. But one very prominent feature of the Bible is that it frequently declares that God meticulously ordains all that comes to pass (Eph 1:11) AND that men are responsible for their actions. One major example sticks out: the greatest sin ever committed by men in history -- the crucifixion of Jesus ---when the Apostle Peter, preaching at Pentecost declares:
"...this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." (Acts 2:23)
and two chapters later in Acts it again says:
"...both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28)
The Bible itself testifies, in plain language, that God ordained evil men to crucify Jesus. Yet "lawless men" are 100% responsible for carrying it out. So those who embrace the Bible as authoritative need to be able to develop a theology which fits that into their view. While you may not understand it, you must yield to what the Scripture teaches regarding God's meticulous hand of providence in all things, and His blamelessness in doing them.
The fatal flaw in Olson's argument flows mostly from his insistence that Calvinists must somehow explain this philosophically or else we are being inconsistent, or worse, make God into a monster. But I would argue to the contrary: since the Bible holds forth our highest presuppositions, the most consistent position possible is to yield to the Bible's teaching that both are true. God does not tell us much about HOW he can ordain evil acts while not being guilty of evil, only shows many examples where He does so. It may be a mystery for human beings to understand, yet crystal clear as regards to its established truth.
Likewise, nowhere in the Bible did God call us to work out the details of this doctrine by philosophical means, or pry into the secret things of God. Rather He calls us to be faithful to the Text that says God ordains all things, even evil, and that, at the same time, God is blameless in doing so. That He ordains sin sinlessly. I do not have to hold these truths together rationally (according to human knowledge) or philosophically but because they are axiomatic in the Bible. My understanding the intricacies of how this comes about is secondary. God is God. DO our finite minds have to understand HOW He does this in order for it to be true?
It appears that, ultimately, Olson's objections to this are moral and philosophical rather than exegetical. He is, therefore, basing his considerations and thus his theological foundations on sand. The conclusions we reach, I would contend, must be based on what the Scripture says. For the alternative is to draw our highest presuppositions from something other than an authoritative source, such as unaided human reason. It is of utmost importance that he come up with exegetical grounds for his position, rather than base his theology on an emotional reaction.
I honestly cringe for Olson when he says that if God ordains evil events then God is indistinguishable from the devil, because the Bible declares that God does ordain them, and also declares that he does so blamelessly, i.e. without sin. And if our theology is biblical, (and I believe it is) then Dr. Olson ends up calling God a monster or worse, the devil. YIKES!!! I would not want to be him.
Note: It should be a given for Christians, that due to the fall, all human beings are not safe from temporal and eternal punishment. Why should it, therefore, so surprise Olson that God justly exercises this authority during our lives? Judgement has already begun east of Eden and we all are subject to death. So nothing (no suffering) should surprise us here except for the great mercy He has shown us in Jesus Christ. Regarding the Tower of Siloam (Luke 13:4), Jesus declared that it did not fall on people for their particular sin(s) because they were somehow worse that others, but as a sign in this fallen world that we are all ill-deserving sinners, under a curse who need to repent and receive the mercy of Jesus Christ. Don't be surprised that the tower fell on those people - let it be a sober reminder that you deserve the same.
_________________________________________________
Similar Online Resources
Letter from Visitor on Calvinism, Evil and God's Holiness by John Hendryx
Testing Roger Olson's Depth of Exegesis: 1 Timothy 2:4 by James White
Seven Things the Bible Says About Evil by Johnathon Bowers
Now available at Monergism Books
"For Calvinism" by Michael Horton and "Against Calvinism" by Roger Olson.
Does it Make God a Moral Monster if He Ordains All that Comes to Pass?
Posted : 20 Oct, 2011 03:39 PM
Does it Make God a Moral Monster if He Ordains All that Comes to Pass?
*** Nope !!!...God isnt a GOD of Morals as we understand morals...He is a GOD of Supreme Sovereignty...Righteousness...Un-Conditional Love...What God says He will do...He will do...When He says it will come to pass...It will...In His time of choosing and for His GLORY...xo
Does it Make God a Moral Monster if He Ordains All that Comes to Pass?
Posted : 20 Oct, 2011 04:49 PM
Predestination demonstrates the greatest wisdom the world has never seen, because some were predestined "afore unto glory," as others were left in their state of sin as vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.
Men do not know what true knowledge and wisdom are all about, because "to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." If you are not of the elect, you will never come to saving grace.
In both the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity we see the dichotomy of eternal wisdom.
Predestination is synonymous with wisdom. Why?.. Because it provides both a beginning and an end. Man cannot comprehend anything without an example.
For example, would you know what the proportional term "UP" is, if it were not for that proportion which is referred to as "DOWN"..? Would you? No!
This dichotomy of duality is what proves that the Word of God is in fact the Word of God; and why every other book which alleges to be �the wisdom of the ages� is an imposter, or �antichrist�, which means �in the place of Christ� or �instead of Christ�.
Without being able to comprehend that proportion referred to as "LEFT" you'd not be able to grasp what "RIGHT" means, and the same goes for LIGHT-DARKNESS, ABOVE-BELOW, BEFORE-BEHIND, GOOD-EVIL, LOVE-HATE..
This is why Solomon wrote, "To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace...�
There is a time for everything, because everything was predestined.
Here the Lord, through the prophet Isaiah, says of His having predestined everything:
�Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, �My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure�;�
And to give an example of predestination in the Old Testament, the Lord tells of His having predestined Cyrus for the purpose of invading Babylon (536BC), whom He calls �a bird of prey�:
�Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.� [Isaiah 46:9-11]
It was all predestined.
Predestination proves that the Bible is true. It proves that there was a beginning to all of this, as Jesus, in His demonstrating that He was/is indeed Lord of All, said that there will be an end, called Judgment Day.
The Bible is the ONLY religious book in all the history of the world which has TWO PARTS. This gives us the dichotomy of wisdom. But at the same time, this also proves that both Judaism and Christianity are not valid authentic religions. Judaism, which claims to be the heir of the Old Testament, does not have an end, and Christianity, which claims to be the heir of the New Testament, does not have a beginning..
Just go up to any who professes to be "a Christian" and ask them, "when were you saved?"
They will give you a date, such as "December 12th, 1988 at the Billy Graham Crusade in Tampa FL".
Although scripture tells us that Paul was converted on the Road to Damascus [Acts 9:1-4], and Timothy was �a disciple� when Paul first met him [Acts 16:1-4], look at what Paul tells Timothy, regarding the elect�s being saved before time began:
�Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,� [II Tim 1:8-9]
Why are Christianity and Judaism not valid religions?
It is simple, both must demonstrate a dichotomy in order to demonstrate that they are truly of God; but since neither do, then the only conclusion is, that something is wrong..
What is that something which is wrong?
It is predestination for both Judaism and Christianity.
Predestination would give those which claim to be a "Jew", an ending, and Predestination would give those which claim to be "a Christian", a beginning. Without both a beginning and an end you do not have the dichotomy necessary to teach true knowledge, which is wisdom.
This is why Jesus, in utilizing parables, proved that He was unlike any that had come claiming to represent the Pure Wisdom of the Lord. He had to use parables of "what heaven was like", by contrasting it, often to some principle of agricultural. This provided an example throughout time, as to how wisdom was to be grasped.
This is why you have LIGHT and DARKNESS, GOOD and EVIL involved in the gospel; for it is all about time and eternity, and it is the Only Book which can satisfy the need to comprehend what life is all about.
Some men were predestined to be vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, to assist the Father in bringing His children to glory.
This is why it is written that the Father will give people for His elect, and men for their lives:
"Since you were precious in my sight, you have been honorable, and I have loved you: therefore will I give men for you, and people for your life." [Isaiah 43:4]
"A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee." [Psalm 91:7]
The effects of sin were blotted out before time began in regards to the elect, or the chosen of the Father.
This is why Jesus said,
"All that the Father giveth to me shall some unto me, and he that cometh to me, I shall in no wise cast out." [John 6:37]
And,
"And this is the will of the Father which hath sent me, that of all which He has given me, I SHALL LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up at the last day". [John 6:39]
Isaiah prophesied of this eternal election, when he wrote,
"No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, says the LORD." [Isaiah 54:17]
No weapon formed against the elect in time will ever come to fruition, or the destruction of that tree. The devil and his children are always trying to win, but it is futile, Christ won the war at Calvary when He said, "IT IS FINISHED!"
This is why Jesus said,
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." [Matt 7:18]
If you will go and study the Hebrew and Greek you will see a term which is used in both books. "the elect". You will not find "Christianity" or "Christian" or "Christians" in the Old Testament, as you will not find Judaism mentioned in the New Testament, except for the scriptural passages where Paul tells of his conversion from this warped religion, which sought to persecute the prophets and the apostles.
Thus John Hagee is wrong, for supporting the notion that the fictional entity known as "the Jew", which originated in Babylon, does not require conversion to be truly recognized as "the Chosen"..
How is it possible for John Hagee and others, which claim to be Christian, or "followers of Christ", to say that "the acceptance of Jesus, as the Christ [Greek for Messiah] is not necessary for salvation, which he is preaching every Sunday?
John Hagee is a false prophet, as Judaism is a false religion.
Y'shua HaMashiach, or Jesus the Christ, or the Messiah, is the True Plan of the Father concealed from the foundation of the world, but manifested in time.
How was the Lord able to tell the prophets, things which would take place, if He was not 100% certain of the accomplishment of everything foretold?
It, life, and time, and all that pertains to it, was predestined!
