Thread: The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
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The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 23 Nov, 2011 02:00 PM
Donna, it does not matter how much lipstick one puts on a pig, it is still a pig; and Jean Cauvin, if he were a true believer, had no scriptural authority to be in Geneva in the first place trying to establish a government of men.
I know why you are trying to make it appear as if Cauvin was not entirely responsible for Michael Servetus' death; to give the appearance of religious respectability.
Your comments that others in distant cities were calling for Servetus' death, doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You are conniving in your attempts at trying to grant Cauvin some aspect of plausible deniability, when the truth remains that he had his hands covered with men's blood; not once mind you, but 57 different times.
Jean Cauvin was a religious corporatist hypocrite, and a murderer. There is no scriptural mandate, in even the slightest fashion, calling, first of all for the true children of the Most High, to be forming governments among men, and secondly using violence as a form of Church discipline.
Jesus was clear, His kingdom is not of this world, and you cannot change it.
It is written in Isaiah 8:20:
"If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
For many years, I too was deceived and caught up in the religiousity of this corporatist world. This is the system of antiChrist, and it is all over it, and it is only going to get worse. This is the Father's eternal plan, and again, you cannot change it.
We, which are true believers, are called not to become involved and entrenched even more deeply into this world, but to "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM"..
It is as I stated to you.. God is Sovereign and you can only do exactly what He so desires, and apart from His willing one to "come out", wherein He prepares even the mechanisms by which they are to "come", they cannot walk by faith.
I remember hearing a woman tell the participants of a Bible study one day in LA, "Abraham did not have to go to Canaan!" I went up to her during a break and said to her, "Oh, Yes he did! There was no provision for Abraham to go any other place."
God's providence is for you, at the moment, there; and there you must stay. If His providence ever changes to drawing you to truly "Come out from among them, and be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing", make no mistake about it, you will, as did Abraham, have no other choice than to walk by faith and not by sight.
John Calvin, I now know, was a hypocrite, and his actions in Geneva in telling men that Christ's kingdom had come to men, was a falsehood, and the death of Michael Servetus and 56 others proves it. He was no different than the Pope.
The Pope used murder and torture, so did Cauvin. This earned him the title "Geneva's Pope!"
Where in God's Name, do you think that murder is an acceptable form of Church discipline?
Face it, you cannot find one scripture which supports Michael Servetus' death, or any man's death at the hands of Jesus' disciples!
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 23 Nov, 2011 02:12 PM
In 1540 Michael opened a correspondence with John Calvin of Geneva, asking the reformer what it meant for Jesus to be the Son of God and how a man was to be born again. He criticized Calvin's replies and stated that those who believed in the Trinity believed in the spirit of the dragon, the priests and the false prophets who make war on the lamb. He implied that he was the Michael, referred to in Revelation 12:7 and Daniel 12:1, the one who was to fight the antichrist. Both John Calvin and the Pope were antichrists in Servetus' eyes. Calvin wrote to a friend that if Servetus ever fell into his hands, he would not allow him to get away alive.
In 1553 Michael anonymously published The Restitution of Christianity which he saw as an attempt to restore Christianity to its primitive purity. In that work he boldly--or rashly--continued to deny the Trinity despite the danger it brought him. Denying the Trinity and the incarnation of Christ were still capital offenses as they had been throughout the middle ages. Michael said Jesus was the Son of the eternal God but not the eternal Son of God. Contrary to the reformers, he also taught that both faith and works were necessary for salvation. He sent Calvin a portion of the work.
Roman Catholic authorities in Vienne discovered the name of the Restitution's author because Calvin collaborated in denouncing him to the Inquisition, and they arrested Michael for heresy. He escaped, however, and fled toward Naples by way of Calvin's Geneva. Vienne's authorities burned him in effigy. He entered a church where Calvin was preaching, was recognized, and arrested on charges of blasphemy and heresy, although he was not a citizen and was just passing through town. Was it legal for them to arrest him?
Nonetheless, Michael was tried for heresy, this time by a Protestant city council. He continued in an attitude of superior knowledge and called John Calvin "Simon Magus" an "impostor," and more. Servetus shocked the Genevans with his pantheistic or gnostic claim that everything emanated from God, even the devil. Like the Anabaptists, he declared infant baptism a great error. Geneva unfairly refused him legal council although he was a stranger to its law system, saying he could lie well enough without a lawyer to assist him.
The Geneva Council voted to condemn Servetus for heresy and called for his execution. The Swiss churches of Berne, Zurich, Basle, and Schaffhausen encouraged this move. Although Calvin insisted with the rest that Servetus must die, he urged that in mercy Servetus be executed by the sword, not by burning, but the Council rejected the suggestion. It was quarreling with Calvin at that time over the city government. Calvin and reformer William Farel spent hours with Servetus trying to turn him back from his lapses from commonly accepted Christian doctrine, but Servetus stood fast to his principles.
On this day, October 27, 1553, Geneva burned Michael Servetus at the stake for blasphemy and heresy. In the flames, Michael called repeatedly on Jesus, the Son of God for mercy.
Geneva's action led to an immediate controversy among reformers whether it is right for a reformation church to execute heretics. Most said it was not. Calvin took a lot of heat for his role in the denunciation, trial and execution of Servetus and was not always honest in his account of what had happened.
Bibliography:
Adapted from an earlier Christian History Institute story by Diana Severance, Ph.D.
Bainton, Roland. Hunted Heretic; the life and death of Michael Servetus. Boston: Beacon Press, 1953.
Fulton, John F. Michael Servetus, Humanist and Martyr. New York: Herbert Reichner, 1953.
Hunt, Dave. What Love Is This? : Calvinism's misrepresentation of God. Bend, Oregon: Berean Call, c2004.
"Servetus, Michael." Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, edited by F. L. Cross and E. A. Livingstone. Oxford, 1997.
"Servetus, Michael." Encyclopedia Americana. Chicago: American Corp., 1956.
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 23 Nov, 2011 07:11 PM
Good grief! You do realize you sound like a ranting nut?
Ignoring your post and just concentrating on the TITLE of your thread, I see you have changed the subject a bit.
You changed the subject a bit, because After I added some historical facts to the article you posted you realized that you had been hoodwinked by a dishonest Arminian.
Well, don't feel bad, just realize that you fell for the same thing a lot of people do.
There are ten articles on the internet portraying Calvin as a monster, and maybe two of three scholarly articles that give the truth.
It is best to just read wide and deep in church history.
I would highly recommend the following book:
"A Brief History of Christianity"
By Kenneth Scott Latourette.
They come in two volumes and in paperback.
The first volume covers the beginning to 1500AD
and the second one covers 1500AD until the 1950's
They are about 1500 pages each, but easy to read, and you will learn a great deal about what Christians have done and believed for the past 2000 years.
Anyways, let me try and condense your title of this thread to something a bit more reasonable.
You want me to show with Scripture that any person would have the right to put a person to death as acceptable church discipline?
Well, I can't because church discipline is about removing and correcting church members.
You have to be a member of the local church first, and then the pastor and or elders exercise church discipline inside that church.
I think you are confusing two different subjects.
It is the job of the magistrate to act as God's enforcer of laws on the Earth.
If you look in Romans 13 you will see that God has given responsibilities to government and one of those is the right and duty to punish "evildoers" with the power of the sword.
This is why most Christians believe in the death penalty.
So there are in Scripture different categories of responsibilities.
We have one for individuals, and a different set for governments.
Without getting into What Calvin did in Geneva, which was trying to set up a city that had the Bible as it law book, I would like to ask you to think about something....
In that time period, for hundreds and hundreds of years, the public teaching of heresy was punishable by death.
The accused could recant, and be let go, but if they refused they were often put to death.
Now, you could believe heretical things, but you could not TEACH them publicly.
Now, on one hand back then, the Christian view was to punish heretics who taught lies about God to the public, with death.
In the age you and I live in, we do nothing.
It is not even a misdemeanor that you can be fined for.
So, anyone is legally allowed to teach any lies about God they wish, and it is perfectly legal.
I think that having the death penalty for heretical teaching is going a bit too far.
But I ALSO think that WE who do nothing about people teaching lies about God, are also going a bit too far by allowing it to be legal.
You see, it is VERY easy to think that the age WE live in, is the smart one, and those people in the past were not as smart as we are.
So, my question to you is, WHO do you think will fare better on Judgment Day?
Those Christians who cared so much about the truth of God that they executed Heretics, or people like us who do NOTHING about it?????
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 23 Nov, 2011 07:29 PM
Put up or shut up? I don't feel the love self-proclaimed wiseman. In fact, from what I understand of wiseman, it would be unwise for them to call themselves wise.
Pertaining to your post, what does it matter in this discussion about the character of John Calvin? We do not serve him nor follow him. To do that would be idolatry. Some may do so, but it is a small, misled group.
More importantly, does the character of one speaking nullify the truth? The demons believe and shudder. Are the demons saved? Obviously not. Did they know and understand the truth for what it is? Yes.
The truth is the truth regardless who states it.
In fact, from what I gleam, you pretty much agree with his system of theology. It is assembled authority under God's name that you reject.
It always amazes me when someone who seems so knowledgeable, totally misunderstands simple truths taught in Scripture. The demons have the same problem, their pride.
I said that last statement with reservation, but you my friend, need to be addressed and others warned of your ways.
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 24 Nov, 2011 07:54 AM
Well, one thing that the Lord has made perfectly CLEAR, is that you pretenders cannot PUT UP one scripture which supports VIOLENCE as an acceptable means of church discipline..
Where is that ONE SCRIPTURE...?
C'mon, you claim to be so knowledgeable of the scripture; surely you know of the book, the exact place where THAT SINGLE SOLITARY SCRIPTURE ADVOCATING VIOLENCE AS A MEANS OF CHURCH DISCIPLINE CAN BE FOUND..?
And "SIR JAMES", you above all people on this site, are demonstrating that same egotistical air of selfaggrandisement and superiority that Cauvin suffered from in his quest to be elevated to the status of "a god"..
After all, why would a man choose to refer to himself by a title of noblity..?
You cannot stand anyone, as did Cauvin, who dared to stand in your path and block the view of your apotheosis..
How arrogant you are, you and others on here that seek to slam others and cast them under foot, in your quest to be viewed as being so knowledgeable, so brilliant, so "right", that you may call another names and insult them, if this in your mind to do so..
Let it be known, that I am not ignorant as you Cauvinists would require, in order to be viewed as being the sole defenders of the faith, and that I will never bow the knee to a piece of clay.
John Cauvin was just another man; I do not view him, as do you, as "a god in the flesh!"
He was not a humble man, and let the truth be known that you Cauvinites hate and despise true humility; this is why you loathe any man who dares to assault your religious creed.
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 24 Nov, 2011 08:24 AM
1newguy writes:
"Put up or shut up? I don't feel the love self-proclaimed wiseman. In fact, from what I understand of wiseman, it would be unwise for them to call themselves wise."
If you were truly as wise as you are inferring, by tossing your hat into this ring, you'd also know that what was meant by "PUT UP", was that these hypocrites, these pretenders, ever dragging other sheep, ever hurting them with their arrogant air of superiority, could not "PUT UP..BEFORE THE WORLD" once and for all, that scripture which affords them the support of the Word of God, that Cauvin was just in his handling of the Michael Servetus affair. The "SHUT UP" portion of that phrase would come - in time - from the Holy Writ, which would be manifested as not having provided any such support, leaving these hypocrites in TOTAL SILENCE!
And thus, these Cauvinist pretenders cannot PUT UP BEFORE THE WORLD that one single solitary scripture, demonstrating that the Holy Word of God was not there to support Cauvin, as its eternal presense is not here now to support them. Their silence proves that GOD HAS SHUT THEM UP!
So, and as you can now see, you were wrong, and had no knowledge of where the end would be; but I did.
You do not know me, and you have no right, as the Word commands you, to touch EVER the Lord's anointed:
"When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people; He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; Saying, 'Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.' " [Psalm 105:13-15]
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 24 Nov, 2011 09:34 AM
Certainly, O' Wiseman, you are not so blind so as to recognize when the pot is calling the kettle "black"?
You have the gull to reprove James for his username when you yourself have the fairest name of them all. Unbelievably hypocritical and exactly the kind of judgement our Lord warned us about.
Here's another humble statement of yours:
" So, and as you can now see, you were wrong, and had no knowledge of where the end would be; but I did."
Yes, O' Wiseman, you are guilty of the same exact crime you accuse others of.
Such a rookie mistake. I expected more from you.
I am grateful to our Lord that you are so over the top that no one will buy your wares.
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 24 Nov, 2011 01:51 PM
Although awiseman is somewhat "over the top" this this is one of the more abonimable statements I have ever read:
Quote sirjames: "So, my question to you is, WHO do you think will fare better on Judgment Day?
Those Christians who cared so much about the truth of God that they executed Heretics, or people like us who do NOTHING about it?????"
So let me get this straight; Calvin showing not one aiota of Christ-like behavior towards a man we would see as a nutter today (believing himself to be Michael for one and showing highly irrational behavior), co-operating with the RCC and ending up having him murdered will fare better on judgement day than well.. just about ANYONE else?
RCC or Calvin had no scriptural warrant to mix the sword of Romans 13 with churchdiscipline.
The Calvinist Challenge: PROVE to the World with the scripture once and forever that Jean Cauvin had a scriptural right, or for that matter any man in Geneva, Berne, Rome, or Egypt, to take a man's life, torture him, burn him, or dismember him, as an acceptable Church discipline! Now Sir James, you and Donna and any other Cauvinite, PUT UP or SHUT UP!!!
Posted : 26 Nov, 2011 01:02 PM
Bjerregaard,
You may seek to refer to me as "over the top," but I am a man of God whose life is shaped by the Word of God, and you are 100% Correct, Cauvin was a COLD-BLOODED MURDERER!
Here is a wee bit of insight as to why Cauvin sought to take Michael Servetus out, and it is the same reason why James, and Donna, would take me out, if only they could.
These men, such as Cauvin was, are corporatists. They believe in a system of fictions, aka "corporations", which originated in ancient Babylon. In Babylon the corporation was first known as "the harranu". I have studied this for years.
Jean Cauvin was the CEO at Geneva; he was just like corporatist murderer George W. Busch [German name used], who used great deception to beguile the American people, in the same way that Cauvin beguiled the blind people at Geneva.
Cauvin was antichrist, as George W was/is. Corporatism is ANTICHRIST, because it is an imposter, a pretender, a facsimile of the True Body of Christ, which as you pointed out, are not to be involved in the killing of men, or in the governments of men: "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE YE SEPARATE, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING!" Corporations are "that unclean thing", because they involve a fictional entity, a fictional person, and God hates anything that is created to duplicate His role as Creator and Lawgiver!
When America invaded Iraq in early 2002, antichrist George W. told the people of the World, "there are weapons of mass destruction". It was all a lie. George W. is a servant, a High Priest, of Lucifer, as was Cauvin in his day.
When America, aka "the 2nd Beast" of Revelation 13, invaded Iraq, it was the most unusual war the world had ever seen. You just stop and think back for a moment, and you will see why I am stating this. When we went in, our army was supplemented with over 20,000 corporations in tow. We did not go into Iraq to remove what we were told was "a bully", or a "dictator", we went into that nation to reconstruct it, and rebuild it, and to mold it into a "golem" entity just like the United States is, and just like Cauvin was trying to mold at Geneva, and provide those 20,000 corporations with some work. First we break it, and then we rebuild it, and then we steal their oil and enslave then until every drop of oil is gone from that sand.
Cauvin was furious with Servetus because Servetus threatened Cauvin's dictatorial reputation, and his carefully arranged business relationships at Geneva. Cauvin and those corporatists had beguiled the gullible people at Geneva and had them eating out of their hands, much like the greatly deceived American people believed George W's line about "the weapons of mass destruction". Cauvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion was one of the first hot sellers in Christendom. Today we have these Babylonian pimps, aka ministers, everywhere trying to take the faith of God's elect and convert it into capital. This is what Cauvin was doing, and he was not about to have his star diminished.
He knew so little when he first wrote his blockbuster in 1536, which had only 21 chapters, that he enhanced it and cranked out a new and revised version with 80 chapters before his death.
Here, in the world today, men are selling I-pods and electronic trinkets to generate revenue, and at Geneva theology was the main business of the day.
Cauvin was a writer, like Joel Osteen, whose book was on "Geneva's Top 10 List," and when the Lord directed Michael Servetus to take a copy of that heretic's book and mark up the margins in it, showing how Cauvin was wrong - seven years before Cauvin would get his hands on him, Cauvin was not about to forget the damage to his literary accomplishments - Cauvin wrote to Ferel saying that he was out to get him.
Cauvin was upset that Servetus was threatening the gravy train at Geneva, and Cauvin had to get him out of the way.
So, and like all Luciferians who are out to deceive a people, an artifice of deception was employed, just like Luciferian George W. employed "the weapons of mass destruction" lie, to get the people of America to sacrifice their children on the altar of greed for the oil cabal and Bullion Brokers of Babylon.
It is easy to see that Cauvin was a heretic, for he first used the allegations of "inhuman and unjust barbaric treatment men endured at the hands of the RCC", to gain popularity, and then he quickly flipped the switch and began killing them the same way [57 total were killed by "the Pope of Geneva"].
The American people are so naive' and morally weak, that when it finally became so perfectly clear that THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, this corporation, this fiction - just as Cauvin's fiction, Cauvin's golem at Geneva, known as the USA - [the U.S. Federal government; which is connected to a World-wide federalist system relying on 163 Centralized Banks strategically positioned throughout the entire world] marched into Iraq and set up a city where the corporations had some business to deal with.
You see, the USA is a real peice of work. If you will go to http://americawakeup.net/ you will learn how the elite investment class, of which Cauvin was at Geneva, took over 1,661 corporations out of the USA between 1978 and 2001, and shipped them abroad, to prepare the world for Satan's government - which is now here.
All of the alleged political candidates for U.S. President, are nothing more than corporate officers vying for an opportunity to be "the grand Poohba", who gets a lifetime of special treatment including pension, $400,000.00 a year in salary, free medical care, and whose children will be treated like royalty; and its all an illusion. This farce was created during the Revolutionary war, which was a joke, during which only 25,000 men died, and we ended up signing a peace treaty with England. A nation which has won a Revolutionary War, does not sign a peace treaty with the vanquished foe.
The people of this land were suckered by the Mystery Religion of Babylon, which marched in here [concealed in the Jew's Babylonian Talmud], and started throwing up Babylonian statuary everywhere, such as the Great City of the Dead, aka "Washington DC", the Statue of Liberty, and the 42' tall Statue of Greece's Athena [replete with full size replica of the Parthenon in Nashville, TN] to establish an economy, and the same illusions of Babylonian high finance which enslaved the people at Babylon, are now being employed to enslave the people of earth.
Why do you think, as I posted earlier, that the Star of Remphan is on the reverse of the U.S. One Dollar bill? This nation is Babylon resurrected!
The system of law for this nation is not the same as when the first U.S. Supreme Court was initiated. Our laws were swapped during the Civil War, when that corporatist tyrant Abraham Lincoln and his band of railroad corporatists and the Bullion Brokers of Babylon took over, and we no longer have a true right of trial by jury, but a fraud called "Statutes" which are all chosen and designed for us by Babylonian high priests, aka "lawyers & bankers".
We have ancient Babylon's laws, which are corporatist laws, as were instituted at Geneva, and overseen by Geneva's Pope Jean Cauvin.
By the way, Julius Caesar established Geneva in 58BC; its fitting that another Caesar, Cauvin would seek to rule this wretched system of corporatism which existed in ancient Rome.
In 1886 the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 U.S. 394 (1886) case, which was a United States Supreme Court case dealing with taxation of railroads, was used of these corporatist deceivers to install the corporafeudalist system we live under today.
A member of Skull and Bones, Morrison R. Waite, who was appointed by Ulysses S. Grant [whose administration was so marked by scandal, that it was renamed "GRANTISM"] agreed with Supreme Court Reporter and former president of Newburgh and New York Railway, turned Supreme Court Clerk, Bancroft Davis, that the 14th Amendment concerned not only men, but that it extended to fictions, aka corporations. We have been enslaved by corporations ever since. [Yeah, I am over the top, but I know what I am talking about!]
Jean Cauvin, proclaiming himself to be a believer in Jesus Christ, took over and headed up Caesar's government; isn't that fitting?
The 2nd Beast of Revelation, is an amalgamation of these fictions, aka corporations, all over the world, which have enslaved mankind through artifices of deception, such as the Constitution, which originated in ancient Babylon.
I could write more, but it is not necessary.
This proves that Jean Cauvin was very much concerned with making money, Ceasar style, and with ruling the fictional corporatist entity called "a city".
The Beast is here!
Antichrist is here, and it is all over your life.
So, the next time you make lite of corporations, Donna, you might wish to recall that corporatism was the system which put the Lord Jesus Christ to death, and took His place, and is now called "the antichrist".
Are you a member of a fictional entity, a fictional person known as a corporation, or the real body of Christ?
