Is it possible for those in this debate,to be able to get off of their own High Horse and look into the Word of YHWH,instead of each one just giving their 'OWN OPINION'.
Or for that matter,Copying and Pasting others words.
2Pe 1:19 and we have the more established prophetic Word, in which you do well to take heed, as to a lamp shining in a murky place, until day dawns and the Light-bearing One rises in your hearts;
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that every prophecy of Scripture did not come into being of its own interpretation;
2Pe 1:21 for prophecy was not at any time borne by the will of man, but being borne along by the Holy Spirit, holy men of God spoke.
Let us look into the Word of YHWH concerning this matter.
Then let us ask ourselves this question;
Who,or what am i believing?
Am i believing the 'ACTUAL' Word of YHWH,OR am i believing what someone else believes,and they have been spouting their own 'UNBELIEF'.
Context first:
The purpose for the Holy Spirit to be given unto men.
So that Yeshuas disciple would know that Yeshua has not abandoned them.
Joh 14:16 And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age,
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you.
To 'EMPOWER' the disciples of Yeshua to being
'Witnesses' OF Yeshua,not witnesses FOR Yeshua.
Prophesied by Yeshua:
Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.
Joh 15:27 And you also witness, because from the beginning you are with Me.
Act 1:8 but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Fulfilled in the Holy Spirit:
Act 2:1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one mind in the same place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly a sound came out of the heaven, as being borne along by a violent wind! And it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed, and it sat on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave ability to them to speak.
Act 2:5 And Jews were living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven.
Act 2:6 But this sound occurring, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect.
Act 2:7 And all were amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all these, those speaking, Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how do we hear each in our own dialect in which we were born,
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those living in Mesopotamia, both Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the regions of Libya over against Cyrene, and the temporarily residing Romans, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabians; in our own languages we hear them speaking the great deeds of God?
The above Scriptures show the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to be 'EMPOWERING ' the disciples of Yeshua unto being 'Witnesses' of Yeshua,not being witnesses FOR Yeshua.
For the Holy Spirit according to the Word of Yehsua,The Holy Spirit will 'NEVER' bring attention to Himself.
The Holy Spirit will 'ALWAYS' 'Glorify' Yeshua.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to tell you, but you are not able to bear now.
Joh 16:13 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you.
Joh 16:14 That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you.
Joh 16:15 All things which the Father has are Mine. For this reason I said that He receives from Mine, and will announce to you.
There are certain groups of people which place MORE emphasisi upon the Holy Spirit,then upon Yeshua.
Those that do,are doing this not as the Holy Spirit empowers them,
These are being led of their own emotions,and or desires.
As the above Scriptures speak.
Now let us look into the Word of YHWH to find the 'GIFTS' of the Holy Spirit.
The English word 'GIFT' as concerning that which is of the Holy Spirit of YHWH,this might not be such a good word to be using.
For there are a few words in the Greek language for the one English word 'GIFT'.
We will look at two of these words.
The first of these Greek words is 'dorea',this is found in John 4:10,the woman at the well.
English-Gift
Greek-dorea
d�rea: a gift
Original Word: δωρεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: d�rea
Phonetic Spelling: (do-reh-ah')
Short Definition: a free gift
Definition: a (free) gift, a gift (without repayment).
1431 dōre� (a feminine noun, derived from 1325 /d�dōmi) � a gift, freely given and hence not acquired by merit or "entitlement." 1431 /dōre� (a feminine noun) expresses a brand of giving that highlights the beneficent desire of the giver
Now let us look at the English word in 1st Corinthians 12
translated as 'GIFT'.
This might enlighten some as to what I have been empowered to be sharing here for some time about the Holy Spirit.
English-Gift
Greek-'CHARIS'
Oh no please do not show this to me ,please NO!!!!!!!!!
Which English word is 'TRANSLATED' from the Greek word CHARIS,is it not the word 'GRACE'..
charisma: a gift of grace, a free gift
Original Word: χάρισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: charisma
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-is-mah)
Short Definition: an undeserved favor
Definition: a gift of grace, an undeserved favor.
Cognate: 5486 x�risma (from "grace," 5485 /x�ris) � properly, the operation of grace (divine favor), i.e. a grace-endowment to edify the Church (note the -ma suffix, focusing on the end-result of the endowment of grace).
5486 /x�risma ("grace-gift") divinely empowers a believer to share God's work with others, i.e. Spirit-empowered service to the Church to carry out His plan for His people.
[5486 /x�risma (but not limited to) "spiritual gifts." xarismata (the plural form) literally means "grace-endowments."]
Now let us look into the Scriptures from 1st Corinthians 13 verses 8-10.
Then let us ask ourselves this question.
When did,or when does the 'CHARISMA / GRACE' of YHWH end..
1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.
Did the Charisma / GRACE of YHWH end,at the completion of the written Scriptures.
If this is so,then how is man still having his Knowledge increased when the Word of YHWH says that Knowledge will cease.
How about 'PROPHECY'.
Prophecy means to be 'SPEAKING' for the Word of YHWH.
When did this end.
Mat 28:19 Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the completion of the age. Amen
The CHARISMA / GRACE of YHWH 'NEVER-NEVER-NEVER- has ended,nor will the CHARISMA / GRACE of YHWH ever end.
Even in Eternity,we are totally dependant upon the 'CHARISMA / GRACE' of YHWH for our very existence.
For to have the CHARISMA / GRACE of YHWH to end,there must be an END of YHWHs existence.
Yet YHWH says:
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, the One who is, and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.
Col 1:15 (Yeshua)---- who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and all things have subsisted in Him.
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks to be a prophet, or a spiritual one, let him recognize the things I write to you, that they are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 So then, brothers, seek eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in languages.
1Co 14:40 And let all things come to be done decently and according to order.
I hope this might be clear to those that have been bickering over this subject.
George, I'n confused withy our post and intent... are you agreeing that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (tongues) have ceased, OR are you saying they HAVE NOT CEASED?
The ONLY gist that has ceased is the gift if apostleship, because Hebrews chapter 1, tell us this that God has COMPLETED writing everything through the apsitles that He wanted us to know, and it has bee completed through Jesus Christ His Son.
I Corinthians chapter 13:8 Love never fails (LOVE IS THE MORE PERFECT/EXCELLENT GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND PAUL EXHORTS US TO COVET THE GIFT OF LOVE, BECAUSE WILL NEVER CEASE EVEN WHEN JESUS COMES. I Corinthians chapter 12.
But he also tells us this in I Corinthians Chapter 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
I Corinthians chapter 13 VERSE 9. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness (JESUS) comes, what is in part disappears.
Here Paul is speakign about when Jesus comes ALL the gifts will cease becasue there will nto be a NEED FOR THEM ANYMORE WHEN WE SEE JESUS FACE TO FACE... fo we know (understand) is part, but when Jesus comes, everything that we THINK WE KNOW WILL DISAPPEAR AND WE WILL KNOW ALL THAT WE ARE SUPPOSE TO KNOW THROUGH HIM WILL CLEAR KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSATNDING.
These passage DO NOT INDICATE NOR IMPLY OR SUGGEST THAT THE GIFTS OF TONGUES OR PROPHESY OR KNOWLDGE HAVE CEASED... Thse who believe this are MISINTERPRETING WHAT IS WRRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD. Becasue it says these thigs will ceasde when the PERFECT OR COMPETED ONE, WHICH MEANS JESUS COMES... there will no longer be a need for the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit because we all will be one in Christ.
I Corinthians chapter 14:36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord�s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, BE EAGER TO PROPHESY, AND DO NOT FORBID SPEAKING IN TONGUES. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
I had written about the arguement that the Charisma / Grace of the Holy Spirit had ended with the completion of the Scripture,which is not true.
The Grace of the Holy Spirit imparting tongues,interpretaion and Healing has not ended.
The Holy Spirit has been 'GRIEVED' to the point where we do not see these Gifts / Charisma/Grace,being brought forth as men trust in mens undertsanding of these matters,as well as other matters.
As I had written in order for the Gifts/Charisma/Grace of YHWH to end,
The existence of YHWH would have to end.
For YHWH and His Grace are eternal.
For YHWH is the epitome' of Grace.
Yet speaking in a tongue/ different language is not necessary unto salvation,Trusting Yeshua is all that is necessary.
Not Everyone will speak with a tongue.
Rom 12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, but all members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we the many are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another,
Rom 12:6 but having different gifts according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy, according to the proportion of the faith;
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? All prophets? All teachers? All workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show you a way according to excellence:
Yet each believer is called to being a Witness of Yeshua,as the Holy Spirit comes UPON them and empowers them unto that.
Act 1:8 but you will receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you, and you will be witnesses of Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
Mat 28:19 Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the completion of the age. Amen.
Everyone of the Gifts / Charisma / Grace of YHWH will continue until that which is Perfect has come.
This refers to either the Coming of Yeshua or the New Creation,or the New Jerusalem.
RIGHT GEORGE! YOU ARE ON POINT! If the Holy Spirit hasn't ceased then there is NO WAY the gifts that He give us have ceased. ONLY THE GIFT F APOSTLESHIP becasue the apsotles were second under Jesus, and when they had completed their work and Jesus died and return back to heaven, the apostles' work was done as according to Hebrews chapter 1... but no other gifts have ceased.
Those who believ and are taught they have ceased, have not experienced the pwoer of the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT, and do not know what they are talking about.
Its all about having FAITH TO BELIEVE that what God did in the 1st century church, HE IS MORE THAN ABLE TO DO IT AGAIN.
The Onyl difference is that people DO NOT HAVE THE FAITH TO BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. There is nowhere ins criopture that tells us that the gifts have ceased, its all about how much FAITH A PERSON AHS TO BELIEVE that they too can receive the gifts, and when a person surrenderes to the Holy Spirit they too will receive the gift God has desired for them to have...
I must say I am pleasently surprised and in agreement! The gifts as some call what they have and practice are widely misused and abused and faked and flesh! I am in total agreement, but there are most definatly real gift and rules governing them, they are to be used in the order that is set out in the bible! Not so cause confusion and disorder! I do want to point out thow that the tounges that are the initial evidence of recieving the babtisim is the toungs or prayer languege that is meant to be spoken to god in prayer! But the tounges that are to be interpreted are different and that is a gift such as prophocy and knowlege! They all come from the babtisim and are certainly gifts but the prayer languege is given to all who recieve the babtisim! The gifts prophocy and so on are not given to everyone that recieve the babtisim! But you will recieve a prayer languege! I have experienced the babtisim and as soon as I recieved it the utterance of the prayer languege came, wasnt my flesh as I was in my own personal prayer time and couldnt have been trying in my flesh to impress anyone (not that thats inmy character at all but we must check our selfs and make sure what we have experienced is GOD andnot of ourselfs)
The tongues are evident in the Church today! However, to edify the body of Christ there needs to be an enterpreter there to prophesy what the is being spoke in tongues.
A person can be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues. I had a talk with a friend telling her
that, but she did not believe me, so I asked our Pastor and he said Yes, a saved person can have the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues. Often times, we get misunderstandings but if you seek God for understanding he will lead you to know. Point was you do not have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit.
The tongues are evident in the Church today! However, to edify the body of Christ there needs to be an enterpreter there to prophesy what the is being spoke in tongues.
A person can be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues. I had a talk with a friend telling her
that, but she did not believe me, so I asked our Pastor and he said Yes, a saved person can have the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues. Often times, we get misunderstandings but if you seek God for understanding he will lead you to know. Point was you do not have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit.
First,the word tongue is from the Greek word Glossa,where we get our English word Glossary from.
G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
Thayer Definition:
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations
A tongue is a KNOWN language,yet this TONGUE is not known to the person Empowered of the Holy Spirit to be spoken.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave ability to them to speak.
A person 'DOES NOT' have to be speaking in a tongue/ unknown in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? All prophets? All teachers? All workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
The above questions are rhetorical,needing no answer for the answer is NO.
Whenever a person is with one person or a group of people
which speak a different language;
If the Holy Spirit will use this person to Proclaim the Gospel to these people He may come upon the person and Empower that person to be speaking in the language which the others understand.
Say an English speaking person goes to South America,this person goes to one of the native indian countries,yet has never been trained in the language of the people they are going to.
The Holy Spirit might come upon the person to Empower that person to be speaking the native indians language.
If not,The Holy Spirit might Empower one of the indians to hear the English speaking person talking in his language (English).
Then the indian could interpret the message into His own language for the others to here the Great Works of YHWH.
maybe so, I can only speak from my understanding and experience with a prayer languege, I do know that I didnt have to do it, I just obeyd when the spirit gave utterence and that has been my understanding, but I do know I was filled and then spoke if I had chosen not to speak out the words that came, I think I would have been just as filled as if I hadnt, but there is great discusions and debate about this even in my own church and the felowship of our churches some say it is and always was the evidence of being filled and it was so when I was filled, my pastors wife, I shouildnt say this maybe but I have never heard her speak in tounges but I am sure she is filled I dont ask her maybe she does in her personal prayer time as many do, but she has healing in her hands and the evidence of being spirit filled in her life! So it is a controversy but it doesnt have to bring division, I also think that the stammering lips can be evidence of the intitial filling, but these things are not whats important as the evidence of the spirits work in your life
