2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
Ok, everyone and anyone who read this topic. I have a question about every Bible that you all have at home with notes and references attached to verses in them.
According to the verse reference on this verse in most of your Bibles this particular verse happens to point to Exodus 7:11 where it says:
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts.
Now, if anyone has read the book of Exodus, they will know and notice that the names of the wise men and sorcerers are never given in Pharaoh's court. So WHERE AND HOW would a Pharisee like Paul get this information from and HOW do we know that these men are the ones in Exodus 7:11?
Any guesses?
K. Thanks for your responses in advance.
By the way, this is for fun so please let's not ruin this topic with contention too.
2 Tmothyi 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.
Agapeton said:Now, if anyone has read the book of Exodus, they will know and notice that the names of the wise men and sorcerers are never given in Pharaoh's court. So WHERE AND HOW would a Pharisee like Paul get this information from and HOW do we know that these men are the ones in Exodus 7:11?
Ella says: The names of these two men were well known in the Egyptian and Jewish communities, and are recorded in the Jewish Targum which means translation in general, which usually refers to the Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Bible.
The apostle Paul was an educated scholar of Jewish history, traditions and teachings and had studied at the very best schools therefore he would know the names of these two men.
My guess would be that, all we have is our bible there were many other wrightings maybe some we dont even know about, plus lots of histpry and traditions were passed down by mouth, so Saul of tarsus who was a jew and very important one at that, I am sure knew these things well, we have to keep in mind when reading that the people in the bible didnt actuly have a bble, thats why when people in the new test reference the scriptures, we know they are not talking about the new test but ususaly the books by moses and the prphets and maybe others. I know for sure there was other books even thrown out of the cannon and what about og shoot what was that historians name? ayway yall know who I am talking about, even if it wasnt him, well what I am saying is up until the temple was estroeyd and stuff israel kept exelent records even to be a preist you had to be able to prove ypu were a levite,, and they had all the generations from adam to jesus thats why they had to keep those records because they wanted to be able to prove that the christ when he came was from jesse anddavid and so on, he was even in the blood line of rahab the harlot! So surely it was common knowlege who these men were to educated jews back then which saul of tarsus was and I am sure when he became the apostle paul he didnt just forget everything he knew:ROFL:
also Agapeton, I wanted to thank you for your encoraging words on the thread about the music ministers, I cant really remeber being encoraged on here lately (one other time by et recently) its been a while since I didnt feel like everyone on here was against everything I said, when I read it I really felt encoraged thank you, I know we have had our differences thanks for being a good brother I love you and pray for you often (honestly not just giving lip sevice I pray for you) and I just wanted to tell you that It was truly a blessing to be encoraged on this site for once in the last I dont know how long!:angel:
Ella says: The names of these two men were well known in the Egyptian and Jewish communities, and are recorded in the Jewish Targum which means translation in general, which usually refers to the Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Bible.
The apostle Paul was an educated scholar of Jewish history, traditions and teachings and had studied at the very best schools therefore he would know the names of these two men.
ME: Very good, Ella! They were well known. They were so well known that even the Greek philosophers spoke of them and were common knowledge to all people then.
As for the Targumin, you are correct also with the addition of the fact that it was not a translation but an accepted teaching tool for the Jews at the time because if they were other translations of the original languages then we would have their names WRITTEN IN Exodus 7:11 just as it mentioned the names of the midwives in Exodus 1:15 but we don't. See they used these texts in ADDITION to the Scriptures in the form of STUDY TOOLS sort of like our Study Bibles are today. These ACCEPTED TEACHINGS of the Jewish Sages were passed down and recorded (like the Talmud) with the meaning and reference to a certain verse in the Scriptures. It was exactly as you would see it in the New Testament in the form of 2 Tim. 3:8 by showing Exodus 7:11. The only difference is that their reference would have the explanation of what happened by a Sage who was closer to the time of this being written. Some was prophetic. Some was just expository. And others were just there to to magnify God's intent of personality, if you will. None of the Targumin were inspired by God or anything but they were just as our modern commentaries are today, useful for helping one to study the Word of God more adequately.
By the way, If you notice Paul is mentioning this to Timothy as if he would have known such a thing. That makes one come to the conclusion that he knew this outside of schooling and that possibly his mother taught him or it was common knowledge in the secular world. I tend to go by both since some of the Gentiles had knowledge of the event in Moses' day like philosopher Numenius and a Roman Historian Pliny speak of Jannes and Jambres as Egyptian scribes who opposed Moses with skill in the magic art.
Great job, sister!
This is what it is said in the Targumin of pseudo Johnathon by way of Exodus 7:11:
"and Pharaoh called the wise men and the magicians; and Janis and Jambres, the magicians of the Egyptians, did so by the enchantments of their divinations.''
Elisha says: My guess would be that, all we have is our bible there were many other wrightings maybe some we dont even know about, plus lots of histpry and traditions were passed down....
ME: You are SO Correct, sister Elisha. We have evidence through the Jewish extrabiblical texts AND recorded historical secular writings that these men were from the Exodus account in our Scriptures! Great job! This is why I like to ask such questions because the Holy Spirit empowers all of His children to the truth be they studied or not. What ET did by research, the Lord told you by His Spirit! And thereby confirming His truth by two witnesses. This is why our God is a Mighty God for He speaks to His children when we seek Him in all things in and out of Scripture. That is why we are to seek His truth where ever he leads us knowing that He will guide us into His truth. There is a certain amount of discernment that we are to use, of course, but we still use what we can to confirm the truth without fear because He has promised us that NONE can take us out of His hand and that with His Spirit within us, He teaches us what we need to know outside of man's influence. He shapes us and not the other way around no matter what we may be taught by others.
Sadly, we in Christ have just secluded ourselves to only certain localized denominational thinking that we tend to think of looking outside our faith can lead us astray to the whiles of the devil which is ironically different from what the Word teaches us. It is a subtle form of control that we often over look or don't think about. I've seen many people of faith try to "guide" one's thinking into not trusting something that another believer brings to light because it can deceive as if the Holy Spirit is powerless against such a thing. We are to seek all things said Paul. And Paul had to know a lot of humanistic thinking in order to deal with the Gentiles. That is why he said he was all things to all people in order that he may save a few (1 Cor. 9: 19-22). In fact, he used their reasoning to witness to them at Mars hill when he mentioned what two of their Gentile poets had said (Acts 17:28 Paul actually quoted two poeple. One from a poem entitled Phaenomena from the Gentile poet Aratus and the other was a known song writer named Cleanthus who wrote a Hymn to Jupiter.)
Look at what we lose when we don't search out the other texts that others in the faith tell us not to. I use these texts when I preach the Gospel of Christ to the Jewish practitioners who live near by when they don't want to look at my New Testament.
This is the VERY REASON AS TO WHY THE JEWS WANTED TO STONE JESUS IN JOHN 8:58 because it was TOLD TO THEM OF WHAT HE WOULD SAY WHEN HE CAME!
Here. I will post the text in the Targumin and then the correlating verse from John's Gospel.
Targum, Neofiti on Deut 32:39 "When the Word of the LORD will be revealed to release his people he will say to all the peoples: "Now see that I AM HE who is and was and I AM HE who is destined to be. There is no other god beside me! With my Word I make dead and I make live! I humbled the people of the house of Israel and I will heal them in the end of days. And there is none to rescue from the hands of Gog and his army, when they come to order the ranks for battle against them."
DO you see that? This is one of their Jewish text saying WHAT THE MESSIAH WOULD SAY TO THEM WHEN HE CAME AS CONFIRMATION!
Now, look at what Happens in John 8:
Joh 8:55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar LIKE YOU, but I do know him and I KEEP HIS WORD.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
That is Why Jesus called them Liars! Because they knew what He was to say IN and OUT of Scripture so they couldn't deny Him which ever way they went.
Their OWN COMMENTARIES MENTIONED His coming and saying what He would say.
This is amazing stuff! And as for the Godhead, OH MY GOODNESS! They have SO MUCH STUFF CONFIRMING WHAT OUR NEW TESTAMENT SAYS THAT IT IS A COMPLETE SHAM TO SAY WE AREN'T IN ANY WAY RELATED TO THEIR FAITH. They even speak of Jesus IN THEIR OWN TALMUD. I use that stuff to atheists who say that Jesus never existed. I always ask them WHY would Jewish people speak badly and curse a guy they never believed to exist IN THEIR OWN HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS OF THEIR FAITH?
Anyways, sorry for going on a tangent. I do that when it comes to the Lord Jesus.
But as for the rest that you said, Elish. I do appreciate you in every way in Christ as i do ET and PJ and the rest. It is sad that we tend to belittle each other more than uplift as siblings. We tend to forget that He Who is in us is what binds us together in all things. We are all family. We are a dysfunctional one, but family just the same. I am blessed and honored to read all of your hearts on my pc and have others to love and seek out Christ's never ending love with.
