Author Thread: Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Admin


Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Feb, 2012 01:36 PM

Romans 11: 25-26 As A Recurrent Big Issue, and Dispensationalism



Romans 11: 25-26 says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be

ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;

that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the

Gentiles be come in.

26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall

come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from

Jacob:"



Is this a prophecy saying that sometime in the future all Israel,

meaning all Jews, or all living then, or some of those living at that

time will be saved as those under the influence of John Darby, C.I.

Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and others of dispensationalism have said?

Or, do we interpret Romans 11: 25-26 by other scripture? How many can

identity those other relevant scriptures?



What does dispensationalism say, and especially what are its starting

assumptions?



On http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1981/May/the-essence-of-dispensationalism

they say ".......dispensationalism is rooted in Darby's concept of

the church--a concept that sharply distinguishes the church from

Israel." Darby conceived the idea that the church was not prophesied

in the Old Testament. Therefore he began to teach a future hope for

Israel outside the church..."



John Darby is known as the founder of dispensationalism.



Charles C. Ryrie (born 1925) says:"basic promise of Dispensationalism

is two purposes of God expressed

in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction

throughout eternity." Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today,1966, pp.44-45



In his book, Dispensationalism (1966), Charles Ryrie says "The

essence of Dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel

and the church."(page 3, "Dispensationalism")



J. Dwight Pentecost is another dispensationalist theologian who in

his book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two

distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan. The church is a

mystery, unrevealed in the Old Testament. This mystery program must be

completed before God can resume His program with

Israel and bring it to completion. These considerations all arise from

a literal method of interpretation." (page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost,

Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965).



In 1936, Lewis S. Chafer, a classical dispensationalist, defined

Scofield's literalism as "The outstanding characteristic of the

dispensationalist is ... that he believes every statement of the Bible

and gives to it the plain, natural meaning its words imply."

From: L. S. Chafer, 'Dispensationalism,' Bibliotheca Sacra, 93,

October (1936), pp410, 417.



Following their belief that the Bible must be interpreted in a literal

way, for dispensationalits Israel in scripture must always mean

physical Israel, the physical descendants of Abraham.



So dispensationalism as a man made system of Bible interpretation

starts from, or postulates two main beginning assumptions, that God

has two separate and different peoples, physical Israel, or the Jews,

and the church. The second major postulate is that the Bible must be

interpreted in a literal way, not by metaphor, or similitudes.



What is a postulate? On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom they teach

that "In traditional logic, an axiom or postulate is a proposition

that is not and cannot be proven within the system based on them.

Axioms define and delimit the realm of analysis. In other words, an

axiom is a logical statement that is assumed to be true. Therefore,

its truth is taken for granted within the particular domain of

analysis, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring

other (theory and domain dependent) truths."



But postulation of starting principles for a system of thought is not

limited to logic or math. A theory in almost any field can begin with

postulates, starting propositions that are not proved, but taken to be

true.



Secondly, what the classical dispensationalists - John Darby, C.I.

Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer - assumed or postulated as starting

principles of their system of interpretation are like a taxonomy.



A taxonomy is the procedure for identifying and naming species in

biology, and arranging them into a classification. A taxonomy is a

particular classification scheme created by some individual or group.

On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy they say that a taxonomy is

"A field of science (and major component of systematics) that

encompasses description, identification, nomenclature, and

classification."



But taxonomy is not limited to biology and is not necessary based upon

scientific data.



"Almost anything--animate objects, inanimate objects, places, concepts,

events, properties, and relationships--may be classified according to

some taxonomic scheme. Taxonomies of the more generic kinds of things

typically stem from philosophical investigations. Starting with the

work of Aristotle in his work 'Categories' several philosophers,

especially ontologists, arranged generic categories (also called types

or classes) in a hierarchy that more or less satisfy the criteria for

being a true taxonomy."



"Taxonomy, or categorization, in the human cognition has been a major

area of research in psychology. Social psychologists have sought to

model the manner in which the human mind categorizes social stimuli

(Self-categorization theory is a prototypical example). Some have

argued that the adult human mind naturally organizes its knowledge of

the world into such systems."



Dispensationalism creates a taxonomy by saying that God has two distinct groups of peoples, all physical Israel, and the church, and it says Israel must always be physical Israel in scripture and never anyone else.



Lets look at Bloom's Taxonomies in education as an example. And, in

fact, using Bloom's Taxonomies here goes beyond seeing them as an

example. This is because Bloom's Taxonomies have been highly

influential upon the Public School and University level educational

system in the United States - and it can be identified as the starting

points of a system of education which has tended to diminish absolute

truths and absolute morality of Christianity, and has tended to

emphasize feelings more than teaching people to think.



So, if a Christian has difficulty in understanding that

dispensationalism has set up a self-fulfilling system for interpreting

Romans 11: 25-26 to be a prophecy for the salvation of "All Israel"

sometime in the future, and not a statement saying that since all who

are saved belong to Israel reborn in Christ, it could be due to the

American educational system.



Why must Israel always be physical Israel in scripture in every verse

in which it appears?



Dispensationalism starts by postulating that Israel must always be

physical Israel, and not born again Israel after the Cross and the Day

of Pentecost? Why must it be assumed that Israel cannot be Israel for

those saved in Jesus Christ, but the Body of Christ must be the

"church."



Since dispensationalism starts by assuming Israel must always be

physical Israel, and never that small Remnant Paul mentions in Romans

11: 5, the Jews who did accept Christ, plus many non-Jews who have

been born again in Christ, then Romans 11: 26, "All Israel shall be

saved" must be a prophecy saying all or a great many Jews will be

saved sometime in the future.



Was Paul just exaggerating or using hyperbole in saying All Israel

shall be saved? Not likely. In fact, this statement, that all Israel

shall be saved, is an indication that Romans 11: 26 is not a prophecy,

but just a statement saying that because everyone is saved who belongs

to that one fold of Jesus Christ (John 10: 16, "...and there shall be

one fold, and one shepherd") and because in scripture Israel is the

only group mentioned being God's people, therefore "All Israel shall

be saved."



Bloom's Taxonomies is the starting points of the new system of

education in America, following transformational Marxism, which got

its foot in the door at the University of California at Berkeley in

1950 with Theodor Adorno's The Authoritarian Personality. That new

educational system does not teach its students to think, and it

clearly challenges absolute truths and morality, and is opposed to

Christianity and the Family. It takes the dialectic procedure of

attitude and belief change in Marxism, as developed by psychologists

in the encounter group movement and before in Group Dynamics and uses

it to transform the educational goals and what is taught to students.



And - the preference for "Byte Speak" by people, including in Internet

forums is one result of the transformational Marxist educational

system under Bloom's goals.



On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_Taxonomy they say "Bloom's

Taxonomy is a classification of learning objectives within education

proposed in 1956 by a committee of educators chaired by Benjamin Bloom

who also edited the first volume of the standard text, Taxonomy of

educational objectives: the classification of educational goals."



"Bloom's Taxonomy divides educational objectives into three "domains":

Cognitive, Affective, and Psychomotor (sometimes loosely described as

knowing/head, feeling/heart and doing/hands respectively). "



On http://authorityresearch.co/2010-01%20A%20precis%20of%20Blooms%20Taxonomy.htm

Dean Gotcher says "The Taxonomy is used to map the room, used to

determine which teachers and students are progressively becoming

socialist, i.e. becoming liberated within their thoughts and the

actions (anathema to obedience to authority), i.e. classified as

"higher order thinking skills," and which ones are not participating

in the programmed process of 'change' (continuing to hold to a

traditional, top-down, patriarchal paradigm of obedience to parents

and God), i.e. classified as "lower order thinking skills."

Curriculum is used to shape the classroom experience in order to

either initiate, sustain, or change the children's thoughts and

actions. By changing the curriculum. You change the children. You

change the world. The change in culture, along with the language or

means of communication which initiates and sustains it, can be

accomplished by restructuring the classroom environment from the

preaching and teaching of truth and facts, i.e. where the classroom

curriculum sustains a patriarchal paradigm, i.e. engenders respect for

authority, to a classroom environment of dialoguing opinions, i.e.

where the classroom curriculum initiates and sustains a hereiarchal

paradigm of 'change,' i.e. engenders a revolutionary attitude towards

(or disrespect of) authority. There is no other 'drive' and 'purpose'

for the use of the Taxonomies than the destruction (annihilation) of

the traditional family system, i.e. the system which engenders

sovereignty, property rights, inalienable rights, states rights,

limited government, and nationalism, all of the "old" world

order....."



"As Satan came between the "children" (the created), in the garden in

Eden, and God (the creator), so this process does the same between the

parents and their children, being the same process as defined in

Genesis 3:1-6, the dialectic process--where "value" (worth) becomes

based upon sensuousness, i.e. in self-justification, i.e. in the

"theory and practice" of carnal man, i.e. in his "feelings,"

"thoughts," and "actions," i.e. in "questioning authority," instead of

in righteousness, i.e. in the Word of the Lord God Himself (or the

commands of the parents), requiring an environment of faith, belief,

obedience, and chastening--that curriculum which is of the "old"

school, i.e. of the "old" world order. "



Then Dean Gotcher focuses in on what Benjamin Bloom's system of

educational goal taxonimies is all about and its ideological origins

in what has been called political correctness, cultural Marxism or

Transformational Marxism. He says " As Theodor Adorno explained it,

in his book The Authoritarian Personality (which Bloom uses as his

"Weltanschauung" to develop his "taxonomy"): "God is conceived more

directly after a parental image and thus as a source of support and as

a guiding and sometimes punishing authority." "The conception of the

ideal family situation for the child [is]: 1) uncritical obedience to

the father and elders, 2) pressures directed unilaterally from above

to below, 3) inhibition of spontaneity and 4) emphasis on conformity

to externally imposed values." ". . . personality is a product of the

social environment of the past . . . very resistant to fundamental

change." "The inability to identify with humanity takes the political

form of nationalism." "It would then be more understandable why the

German family, with its long history of authoritarian, threatening

father figures, could become susceptible to a fascist ideology." "



Theodor W. Adorno in his 1950 book, The Authoritarian Personality,

says that Christianity and the family are the causes of the

authoritarian personality and of fascism, and that Christianity must

be weakened or destroyed, along with the family. Bloom's Taxonomies

are the blueprint, the starting point, the postulates of educational

goals in America to transform the culture of the nation through

transformational or non-violent Marxism, so that absolute truth and

absolute morality are questioned and replaced by the dialectic - "lets

talk about it," "lets arrive at a group consensus," "how do you feel

about it."

Post Reply

Agapeton

View Profile
History
Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Feb, 2012 03:33 PM

Nicer thread, brother. I had a hard time with Dispensational Eschatology from the beginning . It has way too many holes in it. When I researched the ideology i came up with a woman from the Plymouth Brethren came up with this revelation and Darby, Moody, Nelson and two others others that I forgot joined in on the band wagon.



Paul plainly shows that Gentiles and Jews are the same and that there is no difference in them as far as inheritance and promises.



May the Lord Jesus keep leading you into His truth, brother.

Post Reply

shalom716

View Profile
History
Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Feb, 2012 03:50 PM

Brother Half,



I appreciate your rather lengthy desertation of explanation, however, I'm confused. Can you put it in simpler terms?



I understand that the dispensationalist have divided the promises among two groups, Israel and the church. Are you saying the promises are only for the saved in Yeshua, Jew or Gentile and not the physical land of Israel?



Thanks





Agape, just to clarify shalom means peace, brother.



:peace:

Post Reply

Agapeton

View Profile
History
Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Feb, 2012 06:30 PM

I know it does, miss Shalom. lol Did you notice the little ""s on the peaceful person in Scott's topic?

Post Reply

Agapeton

View Profile
History
Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Feb, 2012 06:32 PM

Oops! I meant your topic. lol

Post Reply



View Profile
History
Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 23 Feb, 2012 07:31 PM

The Jews know what Shalom means and the fullness is far more than anything, the American would put on it.

Post Reply

dljrn04

View Profile
History
Romans 11: 25-26 As Major Recurrent Issue and Dispensationalism
Posted : 24 Feb, 2012 05:35 AM

I don't believe anything of dispensationalism. I do believe the government is trying to destroy the America our founding fathers started, by breaking down the family. Why else woud abortion be legal and goverment funded. Why else would sodomy be so supported by our government. I believe Israel is not is not all saved i believe Paul is speaking of Gods chosen people in Romans the church. I believe God saves Jews and Gentiles.

Post Reply