Thread: why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
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why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 28 Feb, 2012 08:56 PM
so that is the question i ask to you all. If we are not to teach and follow Torah. why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against it. It is fact that Sha'ul and the rest of the taught ones kept the Feast and Torah their whole lives. I know that this may challenge your doctrinal teaching but i say this in love. please do not refer to the Torah of YEHOVAH as burdensome or bad. it is us who could not keep the law without YESHUA we would be bound for the pit. I love YESHUA and HE will deliever us but i want to keep this on topic so why would Sha'ul make this vow that he is not teaching aginst Torah then go teach against Torah? that would make Sha'ul a liar and we know that he is not a liar.
In the love and peace and YESHUA and our FATHER YEHOVAH
here is the passage:
17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: �You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.�
26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.
27 When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple.
when the seven day were over is the end of the purified period which he did making the vow
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 28 Feb, 2012 10:25 PM
Hey brother! Nice thread and good question! Paul took this vow because of James request before Herod had James killed (Acts 12:1-2) right around 44AD.
Act 21:18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.
Act 21:27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
See, if read within its context, you will see that when Paul came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, he immediately started to preach him to the Jews and started gaining notoriety because of it (Acts 13:5).
Act 13:14 but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.
Act 13:15 After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it."
Act 13:16 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: "Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen.
Act 13:17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it.
Act 13:18 And for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness.
Act 13:19 And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance.
Act 13:20 All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet.
Act 13:21 Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.
Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, 'I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.'
Act 13:23 Of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.
Act 13:24 Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Act 13:25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but behold, after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'
Act 13:26 "Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation.
Act 13:27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
Act 13:28 And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed.
Act 13:29 And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Act 13:31 and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.
Act 13:32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
Act 13:34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, "'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.'
Act 13:35 Therefore he says also in another psalm, "'You will not let your Holy One see corruption.'
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption,
Act 13:37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Act 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
Now, as Paul was preaching Christ and others came to faith because of it the Jews were angry and started to spread rumors concerning him and his gospel and stating that he was preaching that everyone could do what ever they wanted in the faith and that he was allowing for unrighteous behavior because of it which was a means for the circumcision party to get the gentiles to follow and keep the Law of Moses when it was not what the Holy Spirit commanded them.
Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him.
Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.
Act 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.
Right around this time word came to the Apostles in Jerusalem and James wrote his epistle to try and defuse the Jewish believers from sinning and being active in their faith by not being to liberal in the faith by not working the works of faith.
While this was going on, Paul finally gets word of what is going on and the Gentiles being told to follow the Law of Moses and he suddenly writes the epistle of the Galatians asking who were these people that told them to go back to the Law.
When Paul finds out an argument ensues and suddenly they go to Jerusalem to see who told the men to say what they did to the Gentiles.
Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Act 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
Act 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
When they got there they find out that it was some Jews known as the circumcision party ( who later opposes the faith of Christ as Paul explained that they came in to take the believers in Christ captive.) that did this without any consent.
Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
That is when they all got together and came up with solution that the Holy Spirit required the Gentile believers to follow.
The result was this:
Act 15:23 And they wrote these things by their hand: The apostles and elders and brothers send greeting to the brothers, from the nations in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Act 15:24 Because we have heard that certain ones who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, Be circumcised and keep the law to whom we gave no such command;
Act 15:25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who will also announce to you the same things by word.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these necessary things:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which, if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Be prospered.
During that time is when James asked Paul to take on this vow to show that he was not preaching against the Torah. It was an attempt by James to try to pacify a situation that the Jews would try to defame Paul with. Paul kept this vow more out of respect for James' request and for the sake of keeping the peace.
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 28 Feb, 2012 11:34 PM
:applause: great answer sal, you explained that really well, and YEaH WE ARE FREE FROM THE LAW, but that doesnt give us a free pass to sin, however we are not bound in anyway to the purification rituals and so forth!
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 12:05 AM
no that does not really explain it? it says that he took the vow to say that he was not preaching against the Torah, and you say that is true but where you have missed something very important is the vow itself. this is not a promise made to please people( and by the way there were many Jewish followers, it was the relgious system that was going aginst YESHUA and the taught ones) and then go do something else. this was a vow made to YEHOVAH and was followed by an offering. what Yaqov tells the gentiles is this:
19�It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.�
now what this says is that Yaqov and the rest agreed that the gentiles would do these things(4 things straight from Torah) which are from the Torah and that they would hear the rest of the Torah preached when they went to the synagogues on Shabbat every Shabbat actually
so i don't think you are getting the seriousness of this vow, it was not just a hey wink wink yeah i am not teaching them against Torah. it is a very serious vow, which Sha'ul would have been completely against pleasing men anyway, all of his wrtings say so, when Kepha was eating with the pharisees and caused the others to stumble Sha'ul had a fit in front of everyone. so i don't see Sha'ul taking a vow to lighten the situation or lie to please men
to the sister that wrote" yeah we are free from the law", again the law is not bad it is us who are bad, yeah! that YESHAU paid your price but the law is still in effect , no sacrifice cause that was for when you broke the law(a debt was owed now has been paid) but the law itself never changed nor us keeping it, no where in scriptures does anyone say not to keep the law of the Torah which is the law of YEHOVAH, GOD'S rules for HIS house, i see no reason why it is thought of so bad exept that people have taught you that the law of GOD HIMSELF is bad when in fact it is you and me who are corrupt
my point here is let you see that Sha'ul did not preach against Torah and i love you and may YEHOVAH bles syou always
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 01:23 AM
look we are free from the legalism that comes with the purificationj, you are preaching to the coir if you are scolding me about holieness, I have alwasy said jesus is the one who said he didnt come to abolish he law but he come to fullfil it, but we are free from it still not that we are free to sin, we are free from the burden that the law puts on our flesh, without becoming born again we are not able to keep Gods laws, even after we are born again we stil have flesh to contend with, the difference is we have been given a new heart that loves Gods laws not like our flesh that wars against them , but we are free from them jesus paid the price for our transgressions
but we are not bound to the purification rituals in the torah, Paul was a jew I am not a jew and chrsitianity had just been born,
if you are trying to keep the law then you are putting yourself under the law, no ammount of washing will cleanse you if your not washed inthbe blood of the lamb!
for that mater we are not bound by any of Gods laws what we ae bound by is our covevnat with christ, which callsus to epentence and faith in him, we can not save ourselfs if you are trying to keep the laws and pirufucation rituals then you are trying to save yourself ! cant be done Jesus does the saving
Its for every christain to understand that Gods laws the ten commanments and the call to a holy life is for our own good, why is it that people nsit that we have been taught Gods laws are bad, I have never been taught such a thing, its just that if your a christian his laws are now wrighten on your heart thats the difference and if you break one of them it bothers you and you run to an alter of repentence,
sorry to say but this post sounds a little like legalism, we cant do anything to save ourself or makeGod want to save us, its not by our merit or our works you must understand that
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 01:27 AM
let me reenforce that I never have been taught nor do I believe that Gods laws are bad that is ludacris, i love the laws of god, He is alwasy good and everything good comes from hoim
just whee exactly do you get the notion that any chrsitian has ever been taught that Gods laws are bad/ thats an off the wall dead wrong statement
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 05:04 AM
Blessings Icebro, great question,
1 John 4:20�5:5
If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth; but you shall meditate therein day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall have good success. Joshua 1:8
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 08:07 AM
The righteousness of God was not done away with in the New Covenant. That righteousness expressed in the moral law which was brought over into the New Covenant, however cannot be used as an excuse to bring back parts of the ceremonial law. To believe in a Jewish purification rather than believing in becoming morally clean by the righteousness of Jesus Christ is of the spirit of anti-Christ. See John 15:3 and Ephesians 5:26 and have faith and don't go back to walking in the shadow (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 17). The Old Covenant observance of the days of purification was a shadow, looking toward the substance which was Christ, because only Christ can purify us.
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 05:51 PM
Shalom
i am in no way speaking of purification for forgiveness. Follow YESHUA(jesus) means that you keep HIS commands, it is not by works we are forgiven but by belief but it is works that show we believe, belief without works is dead
i am saying that christians do not keep the commands by not keeping Shabbat(not sungod day) the Feast, and living by the Torah, yes you are to keep the laws in the Torha
HEAR THIS : NOT BECAUSE IT SAVES YOU BUT BECAUSE YOU BELEIVE YOUR GOING TO BE DELIEVERED YOU WANT TO LIVE BY THE FATHERS RULES TO ENTER HIS HOUSE
we live Torah not because we have to but because we love our FATHER and HIS SON.
christmas, easter, lent all these holidays are abominations to YEHOVAH so says Torah
do not learn the ways of the inhabbitants and say you do it to ME it is an abmonination
the Feast in the TOrah are shadows to show you the fulfillment and the future
Sha'ul kept the Feast and Torah and all that is in it. not burdensome at all YEHOVAH is good, we are bad
here in acts it is saying that Sha'ul and rest kept the Torah and galations does not say that we should not keep it either
we have to look at Scripture with our own eyes not those of doctrine
Elsiha i love you i really do i promise that you will hear and see moer about this subject soon, this year is going to be an incredible year to be alive, as everyone has yes
search and find out what the Feast that YESHUA kept are. find out what HE did to fulfill the Feast and what they mean, Sha'ul was very serious about showing the world that he kept Torah
i love you elisha if i have upset you in any way i am sorry you can't hear my pleading voice i only wrote this to get you think out of the box of doctrine, these forums are fruitless to get people to understand most people have there way and that is it and they will not change, but i am saying learn the Feast learn them now and be aware of them this year, your MESSIAH kept them so learn more about HIM too
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 06:11 PM
Brother icebro quotes Acts 15:19:�It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.�
now what this says is that Yaqov and the rest agreed that the gentiles would do these things(4 things straight from Torah) which are from the Torah and that they would hear the rest of the Torah preached when they went to the synagogues on Shabbat every Shabbat actually
ME: Brother, The fact that the Law of Moses was being read in synagogues on every Sabbath had nothing to do with the Gentiles keeping it because Gentiles were considered as "unclean" by the Jews. Gentiles were considered less than dogs by the Jews let alone for them to even be considered to be near the synagogues much less in them. What the text meant was that since the Torah was being spoken of in the towns where the gentiles were, then that law would be a perfect tutor to bring them to Christ to whom ever heard one speak of it. Coincidentally, when the Tanakh was being read in those days, it was usually read aloud. Phillip[ and the eunuch was a perfect example of that.
Now, as for the Law, where James expresses his judgement after hearing Peter state that the following of the Law was too heavy even for the Jews to bear (Acts 15:10) and the WHOLE CHURCH AGREE that the Gentiles should not follow the Law.
As for the vow, it was strictly because he was told to do so to pacify rumors that were being spread about him
.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.
The Law was completely fulfilled in Christ and that going back to it was being estranged from Christ.
Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
The giving of the New covenant was evident that the Old covenant was done away with.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
why did Sha'ul make a vow that he was not teaching against Torah
Posted : 29 Feb, 2012 08:30 PM
Icebro I just didnt like what you said about us being taught Gods laws are bad that was offensive I have never heard of such a thing, I love Gods laws they are written on my heart,
as far as feasts God I am aware that jesus fulfilled every feast up untiul trumpets the new year rashhashanna whatever you want to call it, thats the next one in line, I am aware he fulfilled passover,unlevend bread and first fruits, with his death burial and resurection he fullfiled pentecost wen he sent the Holy ghost and He will fullfill trumpets when the trumpet souinds
I am aware that the New year was referd to as no man knows the day or the hour because it wasnt official until someone saw the new moon and therefor technicaly it could be anywhere in a 2 day period!
I am aware that jubilkee hasnt yet been fullfilled
what i dont know is why If Jesus fulfilled these feasts why we have to still have the feasts today, as they were fullfilled and all of the feasts up until He fullfilled them were all done in anticipation of what was to come, and as a matter of fact the feasts themselfs were prophocies and Jesus has fullfilled them so ther is no need for the feasts
Jesus said sabbath is for man not man for the sabbath
doesnt that word me seventh ?
if it means seventh and now the seventh dy is sunday then whats the big deal?
Jesus came to change mens hearts whats on the inside, why would he care if we worship on saturday or sunday?
Considering that God isnt bound by time anyway,
and considering that its an inward change that matters , if we are truly changed on the inside then we will want to please God and keep his laws but there is no need to keep the traditional jewish sabbath, for that matyter sabbath is for rest
Jesus said he would give us rest
He is my sabbath
also, IO was unemployed when I got saved struggling and hunting a job for months, and after I got saved in a week a job fell into my lap, but I am sceduled to work every single saturday , would God give me a job that would make me break his laws?
and furthermore I was off every single sunday for alomst a year and then one day my pastor decided we would vote on changing ourt church time on sunday from tradioanal am and pm service to 1 service on sunday afternoon
The funnyt thing is that my bodd knew I went to church but he had no idea we were changing times and church wouldnt start until larte on sunday afternoon
but the very day that our service times changed my boss had switchjed my schedule to me working sunday morning until 2 which gives me just enough time to get off hget dressed and get to church then I am off the next 2 days from sunday at 2 till wensady at 9 I get way more rest this way and I can get more done and more rest on my days off, I know this was a blessing from God becasue the way it was I worked till sat night then I had to spend al day sunday in church and all I had was monday to rest and do house work drs apointments ect now i egt off work o to church go home by abour 430 or 5 and I am done with any oblifations until weds morning!
So the Lord knew I was burnt out and tired and he fixed it to where I could get some rest and still attend church!
Why would God fix it that way, if it was nessacary for me to keep the sabath whether it be saturday or sunday
I am a single mother I dont have the luxuray of demanding the sabbath day off, I have a child to take care of and I know God gave me this job he has blessed me in every aspect of my life
jesus fullfilled them no need to keep them
but the laws ten commandments and being holy and frre from sin that is a yes
btq I am in agreement with wht you said about easter christmas and lint or anything that comes from the catholic church
