Hello, my beautiful brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus! I hope and pray that the Lord God is revealing and bestowing all of His to you all on a minutely basis.
I have been looking into the Scriptures and trying to see a certain pattern by way of "offices" that certain believers in Christ are to fill within the body and am still continuing to do so, but I thought it best to share what I found so far with the brethren in order to see if the Lord is in agreement with me through you all. I believe that the modern "rules" of the religious are clearly seen in the "rulers" they create because these "rulers" change a simple word that is applied as a solemn duty appointed to ALL believers by God and change it to an elevated official office that can be only ordained by chosen men who like to "lord" things over one another.
The simple truths of Scriptural exegesis and hermeneutics are so highly untaught by these men that they, themselves are easily deceived by their own teachings and made slaves of it.
Elders: (Greek presbuteros) simply means an older person in the world, its customs and in all its religious aspects. The best definition and example of the word is Acts 2:17 as old men. Christian "rulers" alter the word to a position of power and authority to separate themselves in different "spiritual" classes of maturity and authority from one another.
Overseers: (Greek episkope) to be attentive to an outcome, or situation that only God can redeem, rectify, and rescue from. To be aware, or mindful, inspection. The word is best described in Luke 19:44 by way of Christ's "visitation". It is a delegation that is expected to be carried out by the common believer in Christ to one's self, others, and the faith at all times. This word has been changed by a man and the word has been elevated to a place of authority and "job" by adding an EXTRA WORD (OFFICE) in the Greek text (which is not clearly there) in 1 Tim 3:1, to keep order among others who are considered to be lower in stature and intellect compared to himself by calling himself a "Bishop."
Servants (or better yet, TO SERVE): (Greek diakoneo) SOMETHING THAT EVERY BELIEVER IN CHRIST IS SUPPOSED TO DO TO ONE ANOTHER BY WAY OF DISPENSING ONE'S GOD GIVEN ABILITY TO HELP ONE ANOTHER HOWEVER IS FITTING GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES. To wait upon, to serve. Best description and definition of the word is used in Mark 10:44-45 and 1 Peter 4:10-11 by SERVE. Man's interpretation of the word is changed to DEACON and elevated to a specialized office of authority that has authority over the common pew sitting Christian.
No wonder why the common Christian has been reduced to just sitting in his/her self appointed pew to go learn how to be a good Christian on a Sunday. It is because their whole identity in Christ has been taken away by the ones who "rule" over them.
How did i come up with this you ask? By simple prayer, study, and asking the Lord to guide me and this is what He is leading me to find out.
Let me give you some back ground on how this came about.
I am doing a study on the book of Timothy. You know the simple basics of when and why it was written according to the events of the book of Acts (Acts 19:20 seems to be the starting point for those who are interested.) and it seems that there are some seriously misinterpreted teachings because of the things in the epistle to Timothy aren't fully put within their historical and cultural context. I was looking at it as a whole and couldn't understand how men had to be put in roles and women were separated yet they too, were called the same as these "positions" by Paul and others in the Bible.
Like "deacons" for example. Paul calls Phoebe a "servant" in Romans 16:1 with the same word he uses in 1 Tim 3:8 as "deacons" and then it seems as if the same word is translated to a position specifically delegated to a man in Tim 3:12. BUT IT CLEARLY ISN'T THE CASE FROM THE ACTUAL GREEK SCRIPTURES!
Here. I will post the Greek first and then the explanation along with the example for it later on.
1Ti 3:8 diakonous osautos semnous me dilogous me oino pollo prosechontas me aischrokerdeis
1Ti 3:9 echontas to musterion tes pisteos en kathara suneidesei
1Ti 3:10 kai outoi de dokimazesthosan proton eita diakoneitosan anegkletoi ontes
1Ti 3:11 gunaikas osautos semnas me diabolous nephaleous pistas en pasin
1Ti 3:12 diakonoi estosan mias gunaikos andres teknon kalos proistamenoi kai ton idion oikon
KJV
1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
ESV
1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
1Ti 3:9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.
Ever wonder WHY a DEACON'S WIFE (verse 11) must be dignified while the overseer's wife is not really mentioned by way of how she needs to be in order for this overseer to be considered? Better yet. Ever wonder WHY a wife, or a woman is mentioned AT ALL in this "role" for a MAN'S "ROLE?"
Well, here is the why:
There is a small "interpretive" anomaly in the Greek that has been influenced by the authoritarian, or "lord" minded man to change a wording in the actual Greek to a DEACON'S WIFE INSTEAD OF A "DEACON WIFE" OR "DEACON WOMAN" and thereby limiting the "role" to man appointed instead of an equally shared one. You don't believe me? Check it out for yourself. Heck. I'm not the only person who ever saw this interpretive dificulty in the language and just newly spoke of it. RESEARCH IT for yourself and you'll be amazed at what you find.
Look at the 1889 Darby New Testament translation for example. Why doesn't he translate verse 11 to "the deacon's wife? Does the translation change the meaning of the verse now?
1Ti 3:8 Ministers, in like manner, grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not seeking gain by base means,
1Ti 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these be first proved, then let them minister, being without charge against them .
1Ti 3:11 The women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the ministers be husbands of one wife, conducting their children and their own houses well:
Pay attention to verse 11.
This is some seriously oppressive stuff here. I was having some serious problems reconciling some "roles" between men and women because of what we are taught and what Paul called and entreated as fellow co-laborers in Scripture like Phoebe (Rom 16:1), Euodia, and Syntyche (Phil 4:2). This women not being able to teach stuff is doing exactly what Christ has been telling us over and over within the Scriptures when he says that we aren't to "lord" things over one another like they do in the world.
I know what you're thinking here. "Salvatore Vavalle! You are completely off your rocker! This is so outrageously new that it can't be true!"
I know what you mean! I thought it was odd too! But careful searching of the Scriptures REVEALS IT AND HAS DONE IT throughout history but never stressed upon within the faith, yet commonly giving a woman of God a "position" within the church that had to be in accordance with SCRIPTURE THAT WAS APPOINTED FOR A MAN IN 1 TIMOTHY! Didn't that EVER SEEM ODD TO YOU? I do admit this is a shocker to me because i not once ever bother to question such a thing because i was a man in Christ BUT WHOA!
Now, I'm still looking into this but the "woman in church teaching" thing is also in question too. How you might ask? Well, let's look at the cultural outlay of the land that the epistle was written in and to whom it was written to according to the context. The whole culture of the Gentiles was not like the Jewish one. Women, although very servile in Judaism were liberated by Christianity because He deemed them to be equals among men and able to be in the same room with men when worshiping God as opposed to the Jewish way of separating women outside the congregation of men.
But for the Gentile culture, the woman was a prominent one and could sometime be considered to be superior to the man. If you read the Pauline epistles you will see that most of these gatherings were within WOMEN'S HOUSEHOLDS. These women were prominent according to Luke and Paul. So, with that in mind, women had a way of gaining notoriety by way of buying their freedom and gaining a higher foothold by several unmentionable mentionable ways.
So where is this going, you may ask? Well, because the even happened in Ephesus still according to the Acts of the Apostles chapter 19! What was the God of the Ephesians? (Hint Acts 19:28)
That's right! You got it. DIANA! A GODDESS! A woman was given the right to be a revealer of truth and also a god in the gentile world. So, is that it? Can you come up and prove this, Mr. Vavalle?
YES I CAN! First off, we can see that Paul was not just dealing with Jewish men coming at him disputing the faith now, but also Greek PHILOSOPHICAL MEN (Acts 17:18-22) who came by way of a sacred knowledge in a religious manner! That is why Paul mentions to the Colossians to ignore every wind of teaching that comes from PHILOSOPHY in his epistle to them (Col. 2:8). How do we know that this secret knowledge was evident then? Simple! Because Paul TELLS TIM TO AVOID THIS IN THE EPISTLE TO HIM. 1 Tim 6:20 1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," This "knowledge" is GNOSEOS in the Greek. Yup! You guessed it! GNOSTICISM comes from this. That is what Paul was saying. Gnostics were the first to come up with the belief that Jesus wasn't God in the flesh.
Now, where does this all come from in order for me to try to reconcile the woman in this teaching fiasco?
Haven't figured it out yet? OK. Let me try it this way. Women who were used to being prominent and looked upon to be something that men coveted one way or another in the Gentile world, would exercise authority over the man and would come up with things that some would say was revealed to them by the gods! So, if this was happening in a group that now had the Holy God's Spirit indwelling them who were taught that when they spoke, they should speak as if they were speaking the very words of God, then can you see where this could easily be abused and why Paul had to address this issue in this certain gathering now?
No? Then how does one reconcile the fact that EVERY SERVANT OF GOD MUST BE ABLE TO TEACH (2 Tim. 2:24; Titus 2:3)?
Or the even bigger fact that Paul also wrote the first epistle to Tim in order to tell him to tell CERTAIN PEOPLE that they should not TEACH instead OF ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE (1 Tim 1:3)?
:applause:...Brovo Brother Sal...GOD/Christ Jesus/HolySpirit isnt interested in Male vs Female role...as He is the Husband that seeks His Bride...and the unity of it...The mystery of GOD lies not in His knowledge...it is in His Wisdom and Wisdom is refered to as a "women" in the Scriptures...and just for the heck of it...in the Gnostic Gospels she is called "Sophia"... :0)...lol...xo
Actually its a good example of a person "Seeking" and "Meditating" on the "Word" while seeking GOD and Truth through Study and Sharing...God gives us a mind and he also "Renews" it...
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the [[[ renewing of your mind, ]]] that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Renewal ~ G342 ~ anakainosis
1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better
Mind ~ G3563 ~ nous
1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining
a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding
b) reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognising goodness and of hating evil
c) the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially
2) a particular mode of thinking and judging, i.e thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires
2Ti 2:15 ~ Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Study ~ G4704 ~ spoudazo
1) to hasten, make haste
2) to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence
Approved ~ G1384 ~ dokimos
1) accepted, pleasing, acceptable
Isa 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, [[[ saith the LORD: " ]]]
Reason ~ H3198 ~ yakach
1) to prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct, be right
a) (Hiphil)
1) to decide, judge
2) to adjudge, appoint
3) to show to be right, prove
4) to convince, convict
5) to reprove, chide
6) to correct, rebuke
b) (Hophal) to be chastened
c) (Niphal) to reason, reason
*** Ya gona call me "carnal" also because I study with my mind...which is "reasoning" together with the LORD which He invites us to do ???...xo
When someone has been a great mind and the ability to reason well, that is a gift from God. PJ, you speak of using one's mind as if it's a sin. However you would not be able to show this from scripture.
Actually its a good example of a person "Seeking" and "Meditating" on the "Word" while seeking GOD and Truth through Study and Sharing...God gives us a mind and he also "Renews" it...
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the [[[ renewing of your mind, ]]] that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Actually the scripture is correct the statement is not, man always has a responsibility to the lord and the holy spirit is the helper, if man does not do his part, the mind never changes.
The emphasis in the scripture is for man to do something with his mind, it couldn't be any clearer and even when the mind is being renewed for it is an ongoing process, the mind is never spiritual and never will be.
Notice in the first and second verse's of Roman's the emphasis is on the believer every time, it is man's responsibility to prove the will of God, not the mind.
This scriptures is also another example of what I just said:
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
This scripture is another scripture in agreement with Romans 12:2 and the emphasis is on man and this scripture answer's how the mind is renewed, it is by the word of God.
THE MIND OF MAN IS NOT SPIRITUAL, IT IS NOT MAN THE SPIRIT.
A renewed mind would not accept this statement as the total truth AND USE OF THIS WORD IN SCRIPTURE.
Elders: (Greek presbuteros) simply means an older person in the world, its customs and in all its religious aspects. The best definition and example of the word is Acts 2:17 as old men. Christian "rulers" alter the word to a position of power and authority to separate themselves in different "spiritual" classes of maturity and authority from one another.
Overseers: (Greek episkope) to be attentive to an outcome, or situation that only God can redeem, rectify, and rescue from. To be aware, or mindful, inspection. The word is best described in Luke 19:44 by way of Christ's "visitation". It is a delegation that is expected to be carried out by the common believer in Christ to one's self, others, and the faith at all times. This word has been changed by a man and the word has been elevated to a place of authority and "job" by adding an EXTRA WORD (OFFICE) in the Greek text (which is not clearly there) in 1 Tim 3:1, to keep order among others who are considered to be lower in stature and intellect compared to himself by calling himself a "Bishop."
Not in light of scripture to a student of the word of god and a mind renewed to the will of God.
*** Ya gona call me "carnal" also because I study with my mind...which is "reasoning" together with the LORD which He invites us to do ???...xo
Maybe you should answer your own question here Jude, Who is the You?
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The "RULES" Of Religiousity....
Posted : 12 Apr, 2012 09:45 AM
When someone has been a great mind and the ability to reason well, that is a gift from God. PJ, you speak of using one's mind as if it's a sin. However you would not be able to show this from scripture.
I never said that and that is simply you responding to the truth with your mind and thus the error.
Scripture speaks for itself, you have to agree with it and yes as you say it reason is SIN.
So you deny it and then say that I was right? This makes no sense. If you think reason is inherently sinful, then it might follow that you don't know what reason is.
I did read the post and replys and ima with Holding on this...you are making no reasonable sense here and ima not playing into the ya got it all wrong poo spew...Anywho...:applause:...A most excellant post brother Sal...keep on Studing....Meditating on the Word and know that you are LOVED !!!...xo
