Thread: Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
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Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 05:54 AM
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
The historical premillennialists thought that Christ would rule on earth for a thousand years following the tribulation period. Perhaps they did not all think the thousand years was a literal period. But they did not hold to anything like a pre-millennial rapture. And they did not teach that physical Israel remains the chosen people. This was all before the time of Origen (184-253 A.D.). Before Origen, Ireneaus [140-203], Justin Martyr [100-165], and Papias [80-155], and others were historical premillennialists.
Origen made use of broad allegory in interpreting Scripture, and Augustine followed his lead, saying the thousand year reign of Christ in Rev 20: 1-8 is an allegory of all the "church" age. Catholics and traditional Calvinists do the same. Catholics and many Calvinists now say that the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 are merely the saved people of the entire "church age.".
This Over-Allegorization by the Catholics and Calvinists of the 144,000 as a Remnant in the last days destroys their ministry - for the Catholics and Calvinists.
Daniel 11: 33 says "And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."
The 144, 000, who follow Christ wherever he goes, and are not deceptive (Revelation 14: 5), are witnesses to Christ at a time near the last trumpet and before the end of the tribulation of Matthew 24: 29-30.
On the other hand, the Christian Zionists, or dispensationalists, Over-Literalize the 144,000.
The site http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/es...william-e-cox/
says "Dispensationalists boast of literal interpretation of
Scripture, and cast aspersions at those who "spiritualize" some
passages of the Bible. Charles C. Ryrie, President of The Philadelphia
College of the Bible, says: (Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol. 114, July, 1957,
p. 254), only dispensationalism provides the key to consistent
literalism."
Charles Ryrie says that "Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation. This means interpretation gives to every word the same meaning it would have in normal usage, whether employed in writing, speaking, or thinking. It is sometimes called the principle of since the meaning of each word is determined by grammatical and historical considerations. The principle might also be called normal interpretation since the literal meaning of words is the normal approach to their understanding in all languages. It might also be designated plain interpretation so that no one receives the mistaken notion that the literal principle rules out figures of speech. Symbols, figures of speech, and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and they are in no way contrary to literal interpretation. After all, the very existence of any meaning for a figure of speech depends on the reality of the literal meaning of the terms involved. Figures often make the meaning plainer, but it is the literal, normal, or plain meaning that they convey to the reader." [Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism, Revised and Expanded, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 80-1]
Christian Zionists will usually interpret a text by use of their theology, and/or by their their literalist grammatical-historical interpretation system rather than by other scriptures as was more often done prior to the 19th and 20th century takeover of so many denominations by this theology.
Therefore since the Book of Revelation lists the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7: 4-8, and Revelation 14: 4 says they are not defiled with women and are virgins, therefore, following their
"Hermeneutics," from the pagan god Hermes, the 144,000 cannot be any other group than male Jewish virgins.
For example, the Christian Zionists would never look at Revelation 17: 1-11 where the metaphor of the "great *****" and a "woman" are used in talking about false religion or apostasy of several religions. These verses, for Christian Zionists, cannot be relevant to Revelation 17: 1-11 because their theology demands an honoring of physical Israel and the use of the humanistic grammatical-historical or literal method of intrpretation.
John Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism said " "The Church has sought to settle itself here, but it has no place on the earth... [Though] making a most constructive parenthesis, it forms no part of the regular order of God's earthly plans, but is merely an interruption of them to give a fuller character and meaning to them..."
John. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation' Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94.
"Them" are physical Israel (I Corinthians 10: 18, Romans 9: 8). The church, for Darby, exists to "give fuller character and meaning to all physical Israel." Darby thought that the purpose of the Christian church, the ekklesia as a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, the Israel of God, made into The Body of Christ like the Catholic capital C Church, was to honor all physical Israel. The dispensationalists say that God's people, the Jews, are earthy. They are involved in physical and literal things, like the blood sacrifice of animals, a literal bloodline from Abraham, circumcision, and a physical temple building.
So, the followers of John Darby must say the 144,000 are all male Jewish virgins in order to honor physical Israel. This does not mean that there cannot be some people who will belong to the 144,000, and may now be part of the remnant, that were formerly Jewish in the flesh and in their doctrines. Those in Messianic Judaism mix the two covenants and are not witnesses to Christ in full because of their doctrines.
It is not given to those who Over-Allegorize or Over-Literalize the 144,000 to understand the truth about them at this time. There are other prophecies for which an understanding has not been given to those in various man-made theologies, or even to the Remnant at this point in time. Revelation 11 on the Two Witnesses, with its several statements from Revelation 11: 1 to Revelation 11: 6, are verses difficult to understand - and as far as I know, no one has been given the full meaning of these verses for a metaphoric understanding of this chapter.
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 04:24 PM
We are having a bible study on this very subject tonight, u can access it via www.simplesite.com forward slash Robert824, and click on the bible study chat link, hope u can join us!
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 09:47 PM
Actually whether you are a dispensationalist , a Calvinist or what ever should have nothing to do with your interpretion of the identity of the 12,000 Jews from the 12 Jewish tribes of Israel. They will be saved just before the 6 trumpet plagues in Revlation chapters 8 and 9 which may be about a year before the Last Day of the 1260-day Great Tribulation when the land sea and trees will be greatly harmed. The 5th trumpet plague will last 5 months as per Rev 9:1-11.
Revelation 7:2-8: Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the 4 angels who had power to ham the land and the sea {See Rev 8:7-12} Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God. Then I heard the number ofthose sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed from the the tribe of Reuben 12,000" etc etc.. These 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel are apparently martyred before the 2nd Coming of Jesus since they are in heaven with Jesus { See Rev 14:1-5} **BEFORE** Bablyon or Rome is destroyed {See Rev 18:1-Rev 19:3} in Revelation 14:8 which may occur about 1 month before the Last Day.
The fact that they will not "defile themselves with women" after they are saved in Rev 14:3 does not mean they are virgins or unmarried since married men do not defile themselves when they have relations with their woman wives in the NT.
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 8 Dec, 2012 09:22 AM
The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible
Revelation 7:4
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed�
And therefore could be sure of the exact number, which did not depend upon his sight, and telling them, in which some mistake might have been made, but he heard the number expressed:"
[and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty, [and] four thousand:
"which is a square number arising from twelve, the square root of it, being just twelve times twelve thousand; and may denote their being the true and genuine offspring of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, holding their doctrine, and being built on their foundation; see (Revelation 21:14) ;"
Revelation 7:5
"Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand�
Judah is mentioned first, because Christ sprung from that tribe, and the pure worship of God was preserved in it; and that itself was preserved a distinct tribe until the coming of Shiloh; its name signifies "praise God", (Genesis 29:35) ; and shows, that it becomes all the sealed ones, all true believers, and every member of the church of God, to praise him for all favours and blessings, temporal, spiritual, and eternal. "
"Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand;
his name signifies a "troop", (Genesis 30:11) , and may denote that there would be a numerous company of saints and faithful witnesses during the time of sealing, and amidst all the troubles and afflictions that would attend the church and people of God, and who in the issue would be conquerors, and more than conquerors, through Christ; see (Genesis 49:19) . "
Revelation 7:6
"Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand�
"Asher", which the Septuagint pronounce "Aser", as here, signifies "blessed", (Genesis 30:13) ; as all the sealed ones are, blessed with all spiritual blessings, with grace here, and glory hereafter. "
John Gill was a Baptist, but also a follower of Calvin. In his interpretation of the 144,000 he emphasizes the sealing mentioned in Revelation 7: 2-3. But - and this is very important - Gill does not deal at all with Revelation 7: 1 and 7: 3, "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree" and "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
This metaphoric language says something is going to be let loose to hurt the earth, the sea and the trees, called the four winds of the earth. The four winds may hurt the literal earth, but this hurting of the earth is not all that is to happen. In Revelation 9: 1-5, the bottomless pit is opened and locust-scorpions came out.
Then in Revelation 9: 13-21 another set of spiritual creatures with tails like serpents are let loose.
Revelation 9 is talking about something that will do spiritual harm, demon spirits and their human minions to torment and kill (literally and maybe physically also) those who claim to belong to Christ.
You can find locust-scorpions and just scorpions and serpents in scripture (Matthew 23: 33, Luke 10: 19 for serpents, and Ezekiel 2: 3-8, and again Luke 10: 19).
John Gill is following the amillennial view of the 144, 000, that they are all just the sealed ones or the elect of the entire church age. In doing so, he denies the 144,000 are a specially sealed remnant who witness for Jesus Christ near the last trumpet, and the end of the tribulation. Something that can spiritually harm those who claim to be Christians is to be released, called the four winds of the earth, and the 144,000 as a last days remnant are to be sealed so this does not hurt them spiritually. They are made immune to deception - and the dialectic. And the 144,000 stand out as being very different from the mass of those who claim to be Christians in the last days, who are in false doctrines.
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 8 Dec, 2012 07:43 PM
Halfback Your interpretation of the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel is pure Satanic garbage.
You should read Revelation 22:16,18,19 over and over again before making such ridiculous conclusions.
Revelation 22:16,18,19:
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches...I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of thgis book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described {Including eternal hell} And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the Tree of Life and n the Holy City {The New Jerusalem} which is described in this book."
There are many Calvinists who agree with John Calvin who wrote a Institute on every book of the Bible except Revelation and declared that the book of Revelation is not inspired by God and has no spiritual significance.
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 9 Dec, 2012 06:06 AM
Christian Dating For Free is not the best forum to discuss the 144,000. Yet who knows who might read comments about this remnant in the end times and have ears to hear.
The 144,000 interpreted to be a remnant whose characteristics are briefly described in Revelation 14: 4-5, are similar to the remnant of Israel described in Zephaniah 3: 12-13. "The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth:" In Revelation 14: 4-5 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Remnant, meaning a few faithful to Christ and his doctrines, is used only four times in the New Testament. Paul quotes Isaiah 10:22-23 in Romans 9: 27, using kataleimma, Strong's 2640, a remainder, a few."
In Romans 11: 5 Paul says there is a remnant according to the election of grace, referring to the few from physical Israel who accepted Christ. Here he uses leimma, "a remainder."
Then in Revelation 11: 13 the remnant was afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Remnant is from loipoy, remaining ones, other, which remain, remnant, residue, rest.
The same Greek word, loipoy, is used in Revelation 12: 17, where the dragon goes to make war with the remnant, a few, those remaining who are faithful to Christ,keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Remnant is used also in Matthew 22: 6 and in Revelation 19: 21, but in these texts remnant does not refer to a small number who remain faithful to Christ and his doctrines.
The Catholic and dispensationalist theologies tend to be broad way, or majority theologies, which would not find attractive the teaching that after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and the leavening of the churches of Luke 13: 21 the elect becomes only a few, a remnant. So, the Catholics, followed by many Calvinists because of Calvin's use of Augustine as an authority on doctrine, do not see the 144,000 as an end time remnant.
The dispensationalists,also in a broad way theology, would place the arrival of the 144,000 during their tribulation period, supposedly after the dispensationalist church has been raptured off the earth. So, for them too, the 144,000 cannot be a remnant of the "church" which remains faithful to Christ and his doctrines and in that way threatens the broad way majority who have fallen away from the doctrines of Christ into other Gospels. After all, the 144,000 are all male virgin Jews, or 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams, sometime in the future after the church is in heaven.
Broad way theology refers to Matthew 7: 13, "Enter ye at the straight gate: for wide is the gate, nd broad is the way. that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat."
Over-Allegorization or Over-Literalization of the 144,000
Posted : 11 Dec, 2012 05:12 AM
The 144,000 are the remnant of Israel in the last days who witness to Jesus Christ. This is the Israel of the New Covenant (Galatians 6: 16) and of the New Testament, and also of Paul's revelation given him by the risen Christ (Acts 26: 16-18). It is a remnant out of what Paul calls the Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 25-26), The Jews which are Jews inwardly in the spirit and not in the letter (Romans 2: 29), and the children of the promise of Romans 9: 8.
Like Revelation 6: 1-8, on the set of four horses and riders, Revelation 11: 1-14, on the two witnesses, and on Revelation 13, the two beasts, the texts on the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 do not tell us what this group is, though there are implications from what it does say about them in Revelation 14: 3-5.
For example, Revelation 14: 5 says that in their mouths is found no guile. Guile is deception. If they are not deceptive, it is highly likely that they themselves have not been deceived by false prophets with false doctrines. They have been sealed to protect them from the deception that is rampant in the churches in the last days.
Revelation 14: 4, on their being virgins and not defiled by women is metaphoric. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth is partly metaphoric also. It doesn't mean that they are, while in the flesh on earth, running around following Jesus Christ who is also on the earth. It means they follow all of Christ's doctrines. They are not defiled by false religion, and are spiritually pure.
Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5 can be interpreted by other Bible verses that are relevant, though we have to be very careful in doing this. Zephaniah 3: 12-13 on the remnant of Israel is relevant, in part because it also says the remnant of Israel do not speak lies or have a deceitful tongue.
Daniel 11: 33 is relevant, even though this verse can also be applied to the apostles in the First Century. It shows a glimpse into the ministry of a special small group who witness to Christ.
And the four New Testament texts (Romans 9: 27, Romans 11: 5, Revelation 11: 13, Revelation 12: 17) mentioning the remnant are relevant. Romans 11: 5 is about the small remnant of physical Israel who accepted Christ, and Isaiah 10: 20-22, quoted in Romans 9: 27 is also about the remnant of Israel.
In addition, the Holy Spirit in his due time will reveal to his prophets (Amos 3; 7) which texts of the Bible are relevant to a full understanding of the 144,000, and how the 144,000 are to be completely understood.
There is also a contemporary idea which has been voiced that the 144,000 is also a metaphoric number, and that this remnant in the last days make up the entire elect of God, and all who are not in the 144,000 are not in the elect at the time, because they are in false doctrines, a time which is close or now beginning.
