Thread: Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
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Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Posted : 30 Aug, 2013 10:35 AM
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Revelation 9: 15: "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."
Revelation 9: 18: "By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."
The Textus Receptus and the Westcott-Hort Greek texts for Revelaion 9: 15 and Revelation 9: 18 say the same thing.
If there is a difference between the King James Version for Revelation 9: 15 and 9: 18 and the newer English versions, the difference is not due to differences in wording in the two Greek texts. The recent English versions are almost all from the Westcott-Hort.
New American Standard Bible: Revelation 9: 15: "And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind."
New American Standard Bible: Revelation 9: 18: "A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths"
New American Standard Version: Revelation 9: 15: "And the four angels were loosed, that had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, that they should kill the third part of men."
American Standard Version Revelation 9: 18: "By these three plagues was the third part of men killed, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone, which proceeded out of their mouths."
New Revised Standard Version: Revelation 9: 15: "So the four angels were released, who had been held ready for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, to kill a third of humankind."
New Revised Standard Version: Revelation 9: 18: "By these three plagues a third of humankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths."
New International Version: Revelation 9: 15: "And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind."
New International Version: Revelation 9: 18: "A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths."
The Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for third is Number 5154, tritos, from 5140, "as noun, a third part, or as adverb, third time,thirdly."
For some reason the New American Standard Version follows the King James Version in saying a third part of men. But the other three recent versions shown above all say a third of men or of mankind were killed by what comes out of the mouths of these metaphoric entities of Revelation 9: 15-18.
Saying, within the metaphoric language, that a third part of men were killed, like saying the third part of men were killed by what came out of the mouths of these metaphoric entities, is a clue to the meaning of the metaphor. Changing the verse wording to say a third of men were killed removes this important clue. The result is that Revelation 9: 15 and 9: 18, from these more recent translations.are more likely to be literally interpreted, that one third of men will be physically killed, and this is not what the metaphor is saying.
The NIV, the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Standard Bible also fail to follow Strong's definition of the Greek word tritos, that is means as a noun a third part.
The Geneva Bible for Revelation 9: 15 says "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."
The Tyndale Bible for Revelation 9: 15 says "And the iiii. angelles were loosed which were prepared for an houre for a daye for a moneth and for a yeare for to slee the thyrde part of mem."
I wonder what the New King James does with the Greek word tritos. Here it is for Revelation 9: 15; "So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind."
OK. Most of the new versions of the NT slant Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18 toward a literal interpretation, saying that these metaphoric entities will kill one third of men, not a tird part of men.
You cannot do that, a translator cannot introduce his own interpretation, in any more subtle way, into his translation.
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Posted : 30 Aug, 2013 04:11 PM
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Revelation 9: 15: "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."
Revelation 9: 18: "By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Posted : 30 Aug, 2013 07:13 PM
Revelation 9: 15: "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."
Revelation 9: 18: "By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."
What does it mean to kill the third part of men? Since most people who claim to be Christians are taught false doctrines by false prophets, including the re-definitions of key doctrines, even on the process to salvation, from the time they are first introduced to the Gospel of Christ, how do they develop enough spiritual life for it to be said to be killed?
Christ said in John 10: 10 " I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.."
To reject Christ or to accept another Gospel and another Christ (II Corinthians 11: 4) is to embrace spiritual death. Christ said in Luke 9: 60 "Let the dead bury their dead," meaning there is such a thing as the spiritually dead, those who do not have spiritual life in Christ.
Even in a setting in which the beginner in Christ is taught false man made theologies and a re-defined process to salvation he or she may begin to have just a little spiritual life in Christ from some exposure to the scriptures. And it is this small glimmer of a spiritual life, a promise of a fuller spiritual life that might have come, that the false prophets kill in Revelation 9: 15 and 9: 18. They may also kill a more developed spiritual life in a few.
Bible prophecy on the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, the several texts of Paul in I Timothy and II Timothy on the same subject, such as I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 4,-5,7, II Timothy 4: 3-4, Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3, on many false prophets, and the heavily metaphoric Trumpet Judgments of Revelation 9 are all meant to warn Christians about the danger of false doctrines and of false prophets who teach them.
For those who are interested - have ears to hear - these and other scriptures can began to inspire a person to learn the difference between the meanings of scripture and the meanings of man made false theologies, and there are both more obvious false theologies and more subtle ones. Without leaning the difference between man made false doctrines and the doctrines of scripture there is no coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."
II Peter 2: 1-3, is also about many false prophets, and verse 3 adds that the false prophets will make merchandise of you. Making merchandise of you is a metaphor which is destroyed in its power by several recent English translations which replace making merchandise of you with exploiting you. It is true that the false prophets exploit people who believe them, and they make merchandise of people in the sense that they make money off of deceiving them. But there is a deeper meaning of making merchandise of you than exploiting you or making money off of your being deceived by them.
Making merchandise of you as a metaphor means the false prophets who teach you false doctrines and replace
truth in scripture by their man made theologies and redefinitions of NT doctrines reduce your budding spirituality back to the level of the flesh. You are made merchandise of by what they say and write, by what comes out of their mouths. Merchandise is of the flesh, of the world, of the carnal mind, the natural man who cannot receive the things of the spirit (I Corinthians 2: 14), and making merchandise of you is reducing you back to the condition of the flesh, back to the world and to the natural man.
Revelation 9: 14-19, like Matthew 24: 11 and II Peter 2: 1-3, is about the many false prophets., the huge army of horsemen of Revelation 9: 16. Their horses are described in metaphoric language in Revelation 9: 17. In Verse 19 the power of this huge army of false prophets is in their mouths, in what they say, as the religious authorities, representing heresiarchal authority in Christianity.
Revelation 9: 15 and 9: 18 adds to Matthew 24: 11 in saying that the huge number of false prophets destroy the third part of men, which is the spiritual part of men, the spirit of men, created by the Holy Spirit. The spirit of man, which is not the capital S Spirit, is mentioned in I Corinthians 2: 4, I Corinthians 5: 5, I Corinthians 7: 34, in Galatians 6: 18 and in II Timothy 4: 22.
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Posted : 31 Aug, 2013 04:53 AM
I understand what he is saying and I agree.....I never seen that because I mostly read my NKJV.
They dont litterally kill the third part of men which is our spirit but by preventing them to come to truth and find life in their spirit they are in a way killing the oppertunity through false teachings.
Thanks It makes complete sense. I see so much lies in the church and perversion of the truth that it kills the oppertunity of individuals to come to truth. Such stuburness all around...
I was talking to one such stuburn christian and she wouldnt even be quite enough to listen to the truth and would rather hold to her dead ways that only lead to death when I try to share life with her.
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Posted : 31 Aug, 2013 05:04 AM
One of the lies that kills the spirit is this false form of forgiveness people act out. They say they forgive but inside them is continuing hatred and isolation and division.
These false forgivers never admit wrong on their part they never seek to communicate only hide. They dismiss the other by sweeping things under the table in hopes that time heals all wounds.
Anothr false teaching that kills the third part of humans is the lack of faith when it come to reconcilliation and repentence. This too dealls with the lack of forgiveness but also the lack of faith.
These unreconcillers go from relationship to relationship. Never finding what they are looking for because they refuse to believe God by faith according to His word.
Unforgiveness and unreconcilliation through faith are just two strong delusions of our world that kills the spirit of men.
They are prevelent today because people are lovers of self rather that lovers of God. God is a God of reconcilliation and we are to be also. If we are not working toward reconcilliationand believing by faith that God is capable to work then we are not living by faith. We are living in death.
The greatest failing in faith is in the area of relationships.
Revelation 9: 15 and 9:18, Metaphoric Entities Kill A Third Part of Men
Posted : 31 Aug, 2013 05:19 AM
I recently found another problem with the New King James Version - for Isaiah 29: 16.
Isaiah 29: 16 in the King James Version says: "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"
Isaiah 29: 16 in the New King James Version says:
"Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
�He did not make me�?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
�He has no understanding?"
I used an online Strong's Exhaustive Concordance at:
For Isaiah 29: 16 the English word "down" is from Strong's number 2017, Hophek, which is
said to mean "perverseness, perversity." But its root word is Strong's number 2015, Haphak, which is said to mean "to turn, overthrow, overturn, turn about, turn over, turn around, to change, transform."
Strong's number 2015 is given the same definition in the Blue Letter Bible, at http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2015&t=KJV
Lets look up the English word "esteemed" in Isaiah 29: 16 for the King James Version. The Bible Study Tools site above says "esteemed" is Strong's number 2803, Chashab, which is said to mean "to think, account, to plan, devise, mean, to charge, impute, reckon, to esteem, value, regard, to invent.' And the Blue Letter Bible has the same definitions for number 2803.
The translation of the Hebrew word Number 2017 (online Strong's) by the New King James Version has a meaning that is different from that in the King James Version for Isaiah 29: 16, and different from the meanings given in the Strong's word definitions. "Surely you have things
turned around" is different in meaning than "Surely your turning of things upside down." I just noticed that the New King James "Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;" has a different meaning also than the King James Version's "shall be esteemed as the potter's clay." The King James Version meaning that "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay" can be seen to refer to Jeremiah 18: 1-6. "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
The New King James has; "Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay" does not make the connection to Jeremiah 18: 1-6 that the King James translation does by "shall be esteemed as the potter's clay." The potter's clay in Jeremiah 18 is esteemed because the parable of the potter there is about a very important change in physical Israel, from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, to Israel in the physical to that spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5, and to Jesus Christ then being in that spiritual house reborn in him and no longer in physical Israel ("Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" Matthew 23; 38).
The New King James says: "Surely you have things turned around" also fails to connect in meaning to II Kings 21: 13. "And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." "Things tuned around" does not connect with II Kings 21: 13, "turning it upside down" as does the King James "Surely your turning of things upside down" in Isaiah 29: 16.
The differences between the King James Version and the New King James Version on Isaiah 29: 16 is interesting. "Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;" does not connect back to II Kings 21: 13 and forward to Jeremiah 18: 1-6 as well as the wording in the King James Version, "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay."
King James Version says "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay."
And the Geneva Bible for Isaiah 29: 16 says "Your turning of devices shall it not be
esteemed as the potter�s clay? for shall
the work say of him that
made it, He made me not? or
the thing formed, say of
him that fashioned it,
He had none understanding?"
The New King James for Isaiah 29: 16 is closer in wording and meaning to the American Standard, The New American Standard, the New International Version, and the New Revised Standard than to the King James Version. While the New King James Version claimed to change the old King James Version so it would be more readable, for this important verse on the transformation of physical Israel, which connects to II Kings 21: 13 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 in the King James. the New King James offers a translation which has a different meaning than does the old King James. The sentence "You have things turned around" seems to imply that God himself is turned around in his thinking. In II Kings 21: 13 God is said to have turned Jerusalem upside down. The New King James Version statement, "Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay" has a different meaning than "your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay."
The newer English translations, including the New King James, have a different word structure for Isaiah 29: 16 than does the King James.
This different word structure also changes the meaning of the verse and makes it difficult to see the verse's connection to II Kings 21: 13 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6.
Why the change in word structure? Partly because the new Bible versions are copyrighted, and the creators of these versions thought they should change many verse wordings so their Bibles would be different from the King James - and it looks like the theology of the translators was also a factor for Isaiah 29: 16.
I found the names of the people on the Committee that created the New King James Version. What I expected to find was that the majority of them were dispensationalists.
The prophecy in the Old Testament on turning physical Israel upside down in II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 contradicts the theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many others, that physical Israel remains the chosen people.
Its hard to show conclusively that the theology of the translators for the NKJV led them to use verse wordings for Isaiah 29: 16 that do not tie the verse to II Kings 21: 13 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 as well as the verse wordings of the King James Version. But their verse wordings for Isaiah 29: 16 are certainly in line with their theology.
Since the New King James Version was first published in 1982, it is not surprising that many of the people who contributed to it were dispensationalists.
ARTHUR LEONARD FARSTAD was the main editor of the group who created the New King James Version, first published in 1982. "Arthur L. Farstad served as the Executive Editor of the New King James Version...He holds a Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary."
Dallas Theological Seminary was founded by Lewis S. Chafer, one of the three main classical dispensationalists, along with John Darby and C.I. Schfield. The Seminary has remained an important institution for the promotion of dispensationalist theology.
Dr Ronald B. Allen was the Old Testament editor of the New King James Version, and has a Doctor of Theology degree from Dallas Theological Seminary.
Dr Thomas Ice is a well known dispensationalist who was on the committee that created the New King James Version. Ice got his Masters of Theology degree in 1981 from guess where, Dallas Theological Seminary.
Dr David E. Garland was on the Old Testament committee group, and he is apparently a Southern Baptist, having received his Ph.D. from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Now, in earlier decades, for example, back in the forties and fifties, the Southern Baptists leaders were not all followers of dispensationalism. But - starting in the sixties, the Southern Baptist Convention was taken over by what was then called Fundamentalism, which was essentially dispensationalism.
Dr. Louis Goldberg contributed to the NKJV, Professor of Theology and Jewish Studies
Moody Bible Institute. Moody is a dispensationalist institution.
Dr. Eugene H. Merrill contributed to the Old Testament. He was Associate Professor of Semantics and Old Testament Studies, Dallas Theological Seminary
Dr. Allen P. Ross also contributed to the Old testament, He was Professor of Old Testament,
Dallas Theological Seminary
Dr. Boyce Blackwelder contributed to the New Testament, He was a professor at
Anderson College, Anderson, Indiana, which is part of the Church of God denomination, and probably dispensationalist.
Dr. Virtus E. Gideon contributed to the New Testament. He was Professor of New Testament and Greek
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and probably dispensationalist..
There were a few on the NKJV committee who were probably not followers of dispensationalist theology, such as Dr. Robert L. Reymond. Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics, Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri. Yet the Committee was dominated by dispensationalists.
