Thread: A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
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A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 21 Sep, 2013 04:43 PM
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." Revelation 18: 23
On another Christian dating service forum someone said of Revelation 18: 23 that
"The reference to Babylon is to an actual historical city-state in what Rev 18:23 is referring to and was a Semitic Akkadian city-state (founded in 1894 BC by an Amorite dynasty) of ancient Mesopotamia, the remains of which are found in present-day Hillah, Babil Governorate, Iraq, about 85 kilometres (53 mi) south of Baghdad. All that remains of the original ancient famed city of Babylon today is a large mound, or tell, of broken mud-brick buildings and debris in the fertile Mesopotamian plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The city itself was built upon the Euphrates, and divided in equal parts along its left and right banks, with steep embankments to contain the river's seasonal floods."
This looks like it was taken from a book, article or an online text. But what is interesting is that the comment shows no understanding of the use of metaphor in prophecy. In the comment there is no explanaction at all of how the light of a candle shining no more and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride not being heard in Babylon relates to this literal city-state of Babylon which was long gone at the time John wrote the Book of Revelation.
The comment is part of an argument, which is said not to be an argument, to overthrow the interpretation that Revelation 18: 23 is talking about the light of the Gospel of Christ not shining any more and the voice of Jesus Christ and the elect of Christ not being heard in this metaphoric concept called Babylon.
This particular comment about Babylon in Revelation 17 and 18 being literal and historical Babylon, whose ruins are in present day Iraq, could be part of the historical view of the Book of Revelation. This view says that Revelation presents the history of some period of time, and perhaps the historicists do not agree on what this period is, and history is presented by the use of symbols which are supposed to correspond to events in history, though again, historicists do not always agree on what particular symbols mean in history.
Falling back to an historicist view of Revelation 18: 23 is one way to protect the II Timothy 3: 5-8 from the revelation of that verse pointing out that the light of Christ no longer shines and his voice and the voice of his elect are no longer heard. But its not convincing, and fails as an argument to defend the churches from the propecy about their apostasy..
It may be that the dispensationalist argument is a little better, though still false. It would claim that the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, and all the other prophecies of an apostasy in the churches, such as I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 5-8, II Timothy 3: 13, II Timothy 4: 3-4, II Peter 2: 1-3 and Matthew 24: 11 does not happen until after the beginning of the tribulation, when the dispensationalist church has been raptured off he earth. Even without the rapture, putting off the apostasy until the dispensationalist version of the tribulation occurs protects the church from the prophecy of apostasy at this point in time.
The dispensationalist end time scenario says the tribulation is a seven
year period of great distress due to frightening earth changes and other plagues which
hinder, terrorize and kill many people. So, to avoid the tribulation, the man made
theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many
contemporary Christian celebrities following them say that the church will
be raptured off the earth to escape this horrible period at the time of the age.
There are problems in scripture with the dispensationalist view of a definite tribulation period which can be identified by many or most Christians. First of all, Matthew 24: 29 says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and he stars shall fall from heaven, and he powers of the hedavens shall be shaken."
If the dreadful period of earth changes are to occur after the end of something called the tribulation, then what is the tribulation itself? There are hints about it in Old Testament prophecy.
Isaiah 26: 20-21 says "Come, my people, enter thou into thy
chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a
little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the
inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall
disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."
Indignation is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 2195, za-am, from 2194, froth at the mouth, figuratively. Number 2194 is said to mean "to be enraged, abhor, abominable,angry, have indignation." The Lord has indignation toward the disobedience of those claiming to be his people and he judges them for that disobedience.
The time of trouble in Daniel 12: 1, the day of wrath of Zephaniah 1: 15, and the indignation of Isaiah 26: 20 are all about the judgment of
the Lord on those claiming to be his people because of their failure to obey his commandments, by their specific sins and their following of false doctrines.
God gives those who claim to be his people but do not obey him and accept his doctrines
over to their false doctrines as judgment. II Thessalonians 2: 10-11 says "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." Luked 21: 35
Paul in I Corinthians 10: 11 says "Now all these things happened unto
them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom
the ends of the world are come."
The falling away from obedience to the commandments and truth of the
Lord shown by Jeremiah, which resulted in judgment as a literal
captivity of physical Israel to Babylon can be seen to be re-enacted
toward the end during the period of the New Covenant.
God calls his people out of Babylon as a metaphoric concept for being in false doctrines.
Jeremiah 51: 6 again calls God's people out of metaphoric Babylon. "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence."
Jeremiah 51: 9 says "We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies."
"And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah." Jeremiah 51: 64
In the New Covenant timeline the falling away from obedience to the doctrines given by the Lord is repeated.
Revelation 18: 4 repeats Jeremiah 51:6, in calling God's people out of Babylon. "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
Then, there is the interesting statement in Revelation 18: 23, "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."
The light of a candle refers to Christ's light (John 8: 12). But in Matthew 5: 14 Christ says "Ye are the light of the world." Before falling away into false doctrines, Christians were the light of the world.
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." Matthew 5: 13
"Savour" is from the Greek word moraino, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 3471, which is from Number 3474, moros, "dull, or stupid." Our English word moron comes from moros. Having the light of Christ, and being the salt of the earth, is a state of the spirit and mind which is the opposite of being dull or stupid. In the falling away (II Thessalonians 2: 3) those who still claim to be the people of God are also given over to a state of cognitive dysfunction or dumbness.
In Revelation 18: 23 the voice of the bridegroom and the bride is heard no more in Babylon, the metaphoric concept for being in false doctrines and not having the mind of Christ or his light, and including the corruption of the world, which is partly brought on because the Christians have lost their light and their savour. The bride of Christ does not speak within Babylon because the elect are not in Babylon.
The voice of the bridegroom is heard no more in Babylon, within the camp, because Christ is out in the metaphoric wilderness, outside the camp (Hebrews 13: 13), outside of Babylon. Christ is in the wilderness where in Revelation 12: 6, 14 the metaphoric woman flees. In Revelation 12: 15 the serpent casts out a flood from his mouth to carry away the metaphoric woman and her seed the remnant. But in Revelation 12: 17 the remnant is said to keep the commandments of God and to have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Keeping the commandments of God does not mean following the ceremonial law, but it means obeying Christ by following his doctrines. Since the remnant in the wilderness has the testimony of Christ, Christ speaks truth into their spirits and minds. And they have ears to hear him.
The tribulation period of judgment by God exists because of God's people falling away into false doctrines and being disobedient to the doctrines taught by Him. The tribulation during the Christian era can be seen as a type and re-enactment of the judgment of God upon physical Israel in the time Jeremiah wrote about Israel being led into false doctrines and practices by false prophets. Physical Israel was sent into a literal period of seventy years (Jeremiah 29: 10).. The falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 began many decades ago - in the 19th century. The beginning of the tribulation might be dated to sometime in the 20th century, keyed to the start of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24: 15) in our time period, perhaps in the period right after World War II. It is a period much longer than the seven year dispensationalist tribulation.
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 21 Sep, 2013 06:31 PM
Francis Schaeffer used to talk about Christians not having enough categories of thought. When I was on a Calvinist Yahoo Group several years ago, the Calvinist members could not understand that not all those who hold to a futurist view of much of end time Bible prophecy are pre-millennial dispensationalists. They also had no conception of the guys of the early church period being pre-millennialists.
The way to mess up the power of end time Bible prophecy is to approach it from one of the man-made interpretative systems - "amill, historicist, preterist, amill, or postmil."
Taking a literalist, amillennial, preterist or historicist view of end time Bible prophecy leads to interpretations that are false doctrines, for almost all prophecies.
And - those in the churches who think they are spiritual and born again, but are in the spiritual condition of the natural man do not usually know how to understand the language of metaphor.
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 21 Sep, 2013 06:35 PM
WHAT CITY BUILT ON 7 HILLS AND GREAT SEA PORT WILL BE THE HEADQUARTERS OF 666 DURING THE 1260-DAY GREAT TRIBULATION?? {666 is called the Beast 36 or 6X6 times in the book of Revelation}
Revelation 13:5,7 The Beast {666} will exercise his authority for 42 {30-day} months {or 1260 days}... And he will be given power to make war against the saints and conquer them. {See Dan 7:25} Rev 17:18: The *WOMAN you saw {In Revelation17:1-18} is the great *CITY that will rule over the kings of the earth.
Rev 17:3,5,6,8,9,12,13, 18: I saw a WOMAN sitting on a scarlet Beast {666} with 7 heads and 10 horns...The Beast, which you saw, once was {alive}, now is not {Alive in AD 96}, and will come out of the Abyss {Or Hell} and go to his destruction {See Rev 19:19,20} This title was written on her forehead �Mystery: Babylon the Great: Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abominations of the earth.� I saw that the WOMAN was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. The Beast {666}, which you saw, once was {alive}, now is not {Alive in AD 96}, and will come up out of the Abyss {Or Hell} and go to his destruction {See Rev 19:19,20} ...This calls for a mind with wisdom. The 7 Heads are SEVEN HILLS {ROME} on which the WOMAN sits {Or reigns}... The 10 horns you saw are 10 kings who will give their authority to the Beast {666}...The WOMAN you saw is the great *CITY that rules over the kings of the earth.
Revelation 18:17-20,24 �Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, �Was there ever a city like this great city?� They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: �Woe, Woe, O great *CITY, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin! Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you....In her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.�
Most Bible scholars believe that the book of First Peter was written shortly after the beginning of Nero�s Roman persecution of Christians in AD 64 because of I Peter 4:12,13 & 5:8,9. We know that Peter and his wife were living in Rome at this time. Peter was inspired to write in I Peter 5:13: �She {Peter�s wife} who is in *BABYLON* {Nickname for *ROME*!} sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.� Apparently some Christians including Peter were inspired to call ROME �BABYLON� after Nero�s terrible persecution of Christians starting in AD 64. This is very interesting since the evil city of the End-Times is called �BABYLON� 6 times in Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:5; 18:2,10,21.
All encyclopedias agree that Babylon was completely evacuated in 275 BC and completely destroyed by 141 BC. The Wikipedia encyclopedia states, "By 141 BC, when the Parthian Empire took over the region, Babylon was in complete desolation and obscurity." The only question that remains is: Was Babylon rebuilt so that there could be people living in Babylon around AD 65 when Peter wrote 1 Peter 5:13???
Which leads us to the promises of God in Jeremiah 50:1-3,13: This is the word the Lord spoke through Jeremiah concerning Babylon.."Babylon will be captured... A nation from the north will attack her and lay waste her land. No one will live in it; both men and animals will flee away!" Also read Jeremiah 52:52:61-64: And God ALWAYS keeps His promises. If you check out the latest Iraqi Tour Guides you will notice the following statement: "Today, Babylon lies COMPLETELY in ruins. A large and splendidly carved stone lion is all that remains of its former glories."
I was a missionary in Jerusalem and Jerusalem was never known as the city on 7 hills. It has always been known as the city on 6 mountains {Not Hills} as per Wikipedia {Jerusalem Mountains} which are {1} Mount Herzl {2} Mount of Olives {3} Mount Zion {4} Mount Scopus {5} temple Mount {6} Har Menuchot.
�Babylon� {Nicknamed Rome by Peter} is a �GREAT SEAPORT� in Rev 18:17-19; JUST LIKE ROME and UNLIKE Babylon whose ruins are NOW 4 miles from the very shallow Euphrates River; and UNLIKE Jerusalem which is 2000 to 3000 feet above sea level and 35 miles from the Mediterranean Sea. Babylon is also completely FLAT whereas the End-Time "Babylon" will be a city built on 7 Hills JUST LIKE ROME!!�
Rev 17:18: �The woman you saw {Rev 17:3--Who sits with the Beast with 7 heads} is the great *CITY* {Rome--nicknamed Babylon in I Peter 5:13--See Rev 17:5a} that will rule over the kings of the earth.� The headquarters of 666 will be destroyed about 2 weeks before the Last Day.{See Rev 16:10-16} Rev 18:19: �Woe! Woe, O great *CITY*, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you...In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints and of all who have been killed on the earth!�
The mention of �seven hills� in conjunction with the Harlot Woman (Rev. 17:9) is often seen as an allusion to seven hills known to be associated with Rome:
The Rome view is also built upon the assumption that the seven hills of Revelation 17:9 identify the topography of the ancient city of Rome. Because literature of the ancient world contains dozens of references to the seven hills of Rome, the ancient city of Rome was universally known as the city of the seven hills. Thus, such a topographical reference would immediately suggest Rome in the minds of John�s original audience. This suggestion is especially true given the fact that the seven hills were the nucleus of the city on the left bank of the Tiber River and given the fact that an unusual festival called the septimontium received its name because of this topographical feature.
Rome has always been known as the CITY built on 7 Hills by Romulus from whom Rome gets its name. The following is a quote from Wikipedia Encyclopedia: The Seven Hills of Rome (Italian: Sette colli di Roma) east of the river Tiber form the geographical heart of Rome, within the walls of the ancient city. The SEVEN HILLS are: Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Captoline Hill, Palantine Hill, Quirinal Hill and Viminal Hill.
In addition, the notion that John�s audience would have understood the imagery of Revelation 17 as referring to the topography of Rome seems strengthened by the discovery of the Dea Roma Coin minted in A.D. 71 in Asia Minor. One side of the coin contains the portrait of the emperor. The reverse side of the coin depicts Rome, a Roman pagan goddess, sitting on seven hills seated by the waters of the Tiber River. There are obvious similarities between the Dea Roma Coin and the imagery of Revelation 17. In both cases, the goddess and the harlot are seated on seven hills and are seated either on or by the waters (Rev. 17:1). In addition, the name of the goddess was thought by many Romans to be Amor, which is Roma spelled backwards. Amor was the goddess of love and sexuality. Thus, both the woman on the coin and the woman in Revelation 17 represent harlotry (Rev. 17:5). Furthermore, the coin equates Roma with the power of the Roman Empire, which was active in persecuting Christians of John�s day. The placement of Vespasian on one side of the coin and Roma on the other makes this connection. . . . The goddess is also pictured as holding a sword, which may depict Rome�s imperial power. This imagery parallels with the woman in Revelation 17 who is said to be drunk with the blood of the saints {Rev. 17:5,9}
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 21 Sep, 2013 07:51 PM
wrong I am a Post-Trib, Post-Mill, Futurist
IS THE 1,000 YEAR FIRST RESURRECTION IN REVELATION 20:4-6 FOR THE 24 ELDERS ON THRONES AND MARTYRS ONLY??
Jesus promised to 12 Apostles who followed Him {Including Paul?} that they would be given 12 THRONES and the authority to JUDGE in Matthew 19:28 & Luke 22:30. In Revelation 4:4 Before the beginning of the Great Tribulation John saw exactly 24 thrones surrounding God's Throne in Heaven. The other 12 thrones were most likely given to 12 prominent OT Elders such as Abraham, Joseph and Isaiah. One of these 24 Elders speaks in Rev 7:13-17 and after the 7TH angel sounds the 7TH and Last Trumpet in Rev 11:15 ONLY the 24 Elders state in Rev 11:16-18: �The time has come for JUDGING the dead and for rewarding your saints.�
� �It is completely obvious that the 1,000 year reign mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 is for 24 ELDERS on Thrones and MARTYRS ONLY according to God's Word in Revelation 20:4,5b,6a: "I saw Thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to JUDGE and I saw the SOULS of those who had been beheaded {Or martyred} because of their testimony for Jesus {NT MARTYRS} and because of the Word of God {OT MARTYRS}. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands {**TRIBULATION MARTYRS**}. THEY {THE 24 ELDERS & MARTYRS} came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years... This is the FIRST RESURRECTION... Blessed and holy are those who have part in the FIRST RESURRECTION.' {Which includes THE TRIBULATION MARTYRS!!}
And so the First Resurrection **INCLUDES** the *TRIBULATION MARTYRS*. IF the First Resurrection is a rapture **BEFORE** the Tribulation it certainly can not **INCLUDE** the *TRIBULATION MARTYRS*!!!!
The pre-tribbers believe there will be 2 Resurrections. They believe the First Resurrection is for church saints only and will last just 1 day just **BEFORE** the beginning of the Great Tribulation. They also believe that the Second Resurrection is for OT saints and Tribulation saints and will take place on the Last Day of the Great Tribulation. However, this is impossible since God's Word clearly states the the Tribulation saints will be included in the 1,000 year First Resurrection!!
Rev 20:5a: �The rest of the dead {Those saints who are not martyrs or the 24 Elders on Thrones} did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ENDED.� Which, of course, would be the SECOND RESURRECTION at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. There are only TWO RESURRECTIONS for all saints mentioned in Rev 20:4-6: The FIRST RESURRECTION is for MARTYRS AND THE 24 ELDERS ONLY and INCLUDES the Tribulation Martyrs. And therefore the SECOND RESURRECTION must come on the Last Day of the Great Tribulation and must include ALL SAINTS {Both OT & NT} who are not martyrs or the 24 Elders on thrones.
The Heavenly rewards for the faithful and courageous *MARTYRS* is one of the most important central themes in the book of Revelation. For they will reign with Jesus in Heaven during the 1,000 years before His 2nd Coming; and according to Revelation 7:14-17: They are before the Throne of God and God will spread His tent over them. They will receive White Robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. Never again will they hunger or thirst and God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. Jesus will be their Shepherd and will lead them to springs of Living Water.
FOR EXAMPLE: Let us suppose that the SECOND RESURRECTION takes place on September 16th, 2016; then the continuous 1,000 year FIRST RESURRECTION for MARTYRS AND 24 ELDERS ONLY would take place from Sepember 16th, AD 1016 to September 16th, 2016. The 24 Elders and all of the OT & NT saints martyred before September 16th, 1016 were awakened to reign with Jesus in Heaven and every Martyr martyred after September 16th, 1016 were and will be immediately awakened to reign with Jesus in the continuous 1,000 year FIRST RESURRECTION to be completed on September 16th, 2016 at the SECOND RESURRECTION when "The rest of the dead come to life when the thousand years are ENDED." {Rev 20:5a}
Rev 20:4b �I saw the *SOULS of those who had been martyred because of their testimony for Jesus... they came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years. The Martyrs SOULS will only get their New Heavenly bodies when the 1,000 years are ENDED at the 2nd Coming of Jesus.
This seems to contradict John 6:40: Jesus says, �EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.� However, the LAST DAY RESURRECTION could last 1,000 years for in 2 Pet 3:8 we read: �With the Lord a DAY is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are like a DAY!!
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 21 Sep, 2013 08:39 PM
WE ARE ALL EAGERLY WAITING FOR OUR ETERNAL RENDEZVOUS WITH JESUS!
�
I Peter 1:13: �Therefore, prepare your minds for ACTION, and set your hope *FULLY* on the grace to be given YOU when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*.
I Cor 1:7: �YOU do not lack any spiritual gift as YOU eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be *REVEALED*.�
Now the pre-tribbers claim that this glorious *REVEALING or *REVELATION* of Jesus will be *CONCEALED* BEFORE the beginning of the Great Tribulation.� However, every other time the Word *REVEALED* {Greek-Apocalipsis} is used related to resurrection events it refers to the glorious REVEALING of Jesus on the *LAST DAY* of the Great Tribulation {See 2 Thess 1:7-10 & Luke 17:26-31}. And *CONCEALED* is the exact opposite of *REVEALED* and *APPEARED* according to every dictionary!�
Titus 2:13: �*WE* wait for the *BLESSED HOPE*�the glorious *APPEARING* of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. �Hebrews 9:28 �Jesus will *APPEAR* a 2nd time {And not a 3rd TIME!} to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!�
�Colossians 1:2; 3:4: �To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ.... When Christ, who is your life **APPEARS**, then you also will **APPEAR** with Him in glory.� I John 3:2,3: �When Jesus *APPEARS*, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure!!�
Matthew 24:29,30: Jesus says, �IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days {The Great Tribulation} the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will *APPEAR in the sky and the nations will *SEE* the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory!!�
I John 2:28: �Dear children, continue in Him, so that when He *APPEARS* WE may be confident and unashamed before Him at His COMING!� {See 2 Thess 1:7-10; I Tim 6:14; Heb 9:28 & Col 3:4}� 2 Tim 4:8: Paul said, There is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on THAT DAY�and not only to me, but to *ALL who have longed for His *APPEARING*!!� I Peter 5:4: �When the Chief Shepherd **APPEARS**, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away!�
2 Thess 1:1,6-10:� �To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians�God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.� This will happen *WHEN* the Lord Jesus is *REVEALED* {See I Peter 1:13} from heaven in blazing fire�.� He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.� They will be punished with everlasting *DESTRUCTION* and shut out from the presence of the Lord *ON THE DAY HE COMES* to be glorified in His holy people!!�
A meeting at an appointed place and time is called a RENDEZVOUS. We have a RENDEZVOUS with eternity at the glorious *APPEARING and *REVEALING of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ *IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 22 Sep, 2013 05:35 AM
At this moment I don't have the time to read all these interesting posts, but the only thing what I can say for now is that 2 Thessalonians 1-11 a key is. Here it is stated that the antichrist will come AFTER the One that restrains him will be taken away, that One is the Holy Spirit. And because the Holy Spirit and the Church are tied together, this means that the Church also will be taken away. And after the Rapture has took place, the antichrist will manifest himself and that is the period where Revelation 4-18 speaks about.
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 22 Sep, 2013 07:01 AM
Reading end time Bible prophecy through the distorted lens of man made theological concepts such as the historical, pre-millennial, post-millennial, preterist, and amillennial systems will only lead to false doctrines on the end time. And remember that end time Bible prophecy is not written just to predict what will happen, but it is written to help those who have ears to hear grow in the Spirit. It can be powerful for those who can hear it. For those mired in man-made theology, it is not very powerful.
And what Babylon means in Revelation 17 and 18 is a part of all this. The man made systems in church theology about what this Babylon is do not lead to growth in the Spirit nor a deeper understanding of the loss of sound doctrine (II Timothy 4: 3) in the churches.
Why run down rabbit trails like whether a post is premillennial, futurist or what? Why not be more interested in he implications of Matthew 24: 29-30, that immediately after the tribulation the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven and the heavens will be shaken?
Part of the problem with all these man made "hermeneutics‎" on prophecy is that they keep you operating too high on the ladder of abstraction. That is, they cause you to view prophecy in a more abstract way, rather than focusing more on what the texts say, and - if you really are spiritual or born again, what the metaphors mean.
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 22 Sep, 2013 10:54 AM
2 Thess 1:1,6-10: To the *CHURCH* of the Thessalonians�God is just; He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen *WHEN* the Lord Jesus is *REVEALED* from heaven with His pwerful **ANGELS*:angel::angel: {See Matt 24:31 & 25:31}�. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting *DESTRUCTION* and shut out from the presence of the Lord *ON THE DAY HE COMES* to be glorified in His holy people and to be marveled at among **ALL** those who believed. This includes *YOU* {Church of Thessalonians}, because you believed our testimony to you !!
These inspired Words of God in I Thess 1:1,6-10 absolutely contradict the Preterist and Pre-Trib positions since in guarantees that the Thessalonian church saints will be resurrected on the *SAME DAY* as all the lost which would of course has to take place on the Last Day of the Great Tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 below also completely contradict the Preterist and Pre-Trib positions:
Matthew 24:29-31: Jesus says, �Immediately after the distress of those {1260} days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky.� {Luke 21:28 adds �When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.�} Then the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send His **ANGELS**:angel::angel: {See Matt 25:31 below and 2 Thess 1:7 above} with a loud {7TH & LAST} *TRUMPET* CALL and they will gather *His elect* from the 4 winds {Mark 13:27b adds:} �from the ends of the earth {Saints on earth} to the ends of the Heavens {Saints in Heaven}!!�
Matthew 25:31-34,41,46: Jesus says, "*WHEN* the Son of Man comes in His glory , and all the **ANGELS**:angel::angel: with Him {See Matthew 24:29-31 & 2 Thess 1:7 above}, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people on from another..He will put the sheep on the right and the goats on His left.
**THEN** the King will say to those on His right, "Come you who are blessed of My Father, take your inheritance, the *KINGDOM* prepared for you!!"
**THEN** He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
**THEN they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life!!"
