I have thought about this issue for a while. So while this post is not directed at anyone on this site, someone did write something the other day that reminded me, and so I am posting this for discussion.
What if you have two people, both are Christians, both attend church, both seek Gods will, both pray daily, both spend time in the Word daily, both earnestly lookward God for direction, for life.
Person 1, after much praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, states view X.
Person 2, after much praying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, states position Not X - or the complete opposite.
Both earnestly believe they are led by the Spirit, yet come up with contradictory positions. What do you do?
So one is mis-led and one isn't? I guess the only thing to do is put the whole situation in God's Hands. Any person who is earnestly seeking God's Truth will SEE eventually.
The answer to this dilemma is a simple one, in my opinion,
Ok, I'm sitting here worrying that people will mistake this as a comment on dialogues between TwoSparrows and Archimedes. It's not. So please do not entertain that thought.
This is a logic problem and how we apply it to being led by the spirit.
I'll give an example. Denomination A says Baptism is necessary for salvation. Denomination B says it is not. By definition one has to be wrong, but both claim to be led by the spirit. Let me also say this is not a post about baptism. Just using that as an example, so please avoid that rabbit trail.
GREAT QUESTION!! I ask it myself all the time. I see it here a lot, and in my daily life. I use to say go to the Bible, but like you have said both are getting there understanding from the Bible but both can not be right.
The best answer I have come up with is turn to history. See how the Christians through out history lived and understood the bible. It has been easy for me to tell the difference on who was closer to truth than others when reading Christian history. Another thing I like to do is see how people criticize a doctrine, a theology, a denomination or a theologian or pastor. That is a very good tell tale sign. Are they arguing because it doesn't agree with them, they just don't like it, or are they trying to water down the gospel to take the hard edges off. If the critique has some valid points then I will look deeper. If the critique is weak or opinionated I don't bother. It is not hard to see what people are trying to defend. Give someone a poke or challenge and it won't be long before you know if they are rock solid in truth or fighting because of feelings, experiences and emotions with some scriptures mixed in.
My Question is can both be saved if they claim Jesus as Lord and Savior? Are the ones who say "Lord, Lord" on that day going to be the false religions like Islam, Buddha & Hindu's? And no matter who as long has they claim the death of Jesus for forgiveness of sin that those who follows any of these so call Christan teachings like, legalism, work righteousness, carnal Christians, the charismatic shenanigans will all be saved. According to some here that is what will happen. I see a Catholic preaching his work righteous religion arguing with a saved by grace through faith only Christian, are they going to be in heaven together? Some have said yes. I say, Really?
Good question for this forum and I can not wait to see some answers from certain people here!
But what if Position X and Position Not-X are not opposites?
I don't know, Shawn, but you pose a good question. I shall mull over this a while, because, in short, . . . I don't know what I think about this.
My initial reaction, though, which I will further think through, is that unless it's something Fundamental, I tend to make my own decision on things and not "hang my theology" on something I think is more a detail.
(An example: pre-Trib rapture vs post-Trib rapture. I don't believe God is going to keep anyone out of heaven because he had the wrong position on when exactly the rapture occurs. It's an interesting discussion, and I have my own beliefs on the subject of when, but I don't consider that to be Fundamental. The deity *and* humanity of Jesus? Yes. Salvation by grace through faith? Yes. When the Church is raptured out? No.)
Hahaha, Shawn, you are too funny; you know Archimedes is led by the Catholic church...lol.
Yes I understand what you are asking. In my opinion the premise that 'both can't be right' is incorrect :
This is because you have the variable of the person in the equation. You have assumed, and rightly so, that the Spirit is always constant in that the Spirit always speaks truth. However that does not mean the Spirit speaks the same thing to every person nor even to the same person at different times in their lives.
We are all individuals, and even as individuals we change and grow with time, experience and knowledge. This creates a infinite number of situations for the Spirit to speak to and it must always be remembered, these are "spiritual" situations, not "physical", therefore judged by spiritual standards.
Let's take your example of Baptism, first of all it must be noted this decision is not made by denominations, it is made by individuals. Person 'A' may really need the physical act of Baptism to get it into their spirit that they have started new with Jesus, while person 'B' may only require a altar call or a profession of their faith. As both these people grow in Christ one may decide Baptism is important and the other may realize their salvation doesn't depend on Baptism. So both are led by the Spirit and both are right for them at that time.
*Note; My answer does not include those that are just plain ole wrong, it happens. Nor does it include the essentials of Christianity as put forth in the Scriptures.
Shawn; what we have are differences in understanding.
There are Denominational Christians,then there are Biblical Christians.
There are Denominational differences,where the Baptists do not believe the Scriptures as do the Presbyterians.
The same goes for almost all the denominations.
Protestants vs.Catholics
Lutherans vs Catholics and Episcopalians
Baptists ,Southern Baptists,and Fundamentalist Baptists vs Everyone (hahahaha).
Jews vs Christians..etc
As far as each person,i would say that those attached to the Pastor,or by whatever title they use;these usually will be saying what the man telling them says.
Then we have those that do not read the Word of GOD and believe whatever the man up front says.
We have people that use the word 'FEEL',I feel God saying this.
I feel this is Gods will.
I feel God leading to do this,or that.
Then we have the Biblical Christians,who read,study and meditate upon the Word of GOD,using whatever Biblical resources necessary to discern the Understanding of the Word and will of GOD.
Thers is one interpretaion of Scripture,yet there could be many ways of applying that same Scripture.
Then there are some Scripture with only one interpretation,and only one way to apply that.
Here are some examples of one iterpretaion,one application.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We always need to go to the Word of YHWH trusting the Holy Spirit to lead and guide into all righteousness and understanding.
Letting the Holy Spirit reveal to each person what He-The Holy Spirit is saying,to the individual believer and to the local assemblies.
Yeshua prayed for the body to be united,Yet Denominationalism,pride,and Biblical ignorance has kept the body divided for quite some time.
Agape' and Charis:
George
The Non denominational Evangelical-,Protestant-Presbyterian
I think you all have good points, here. We know that the bible says there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." So by that we know that is the spiritual realm, God only sees the true church, covered by the blood of Jesus. Only He really knows who they are and what fruit they are producing in their walk with Him.
Too many Christians want to decide right now, who is a "wheat" and who is a "tare." Jesus said to let them both grow together until the end and then it would be evident. So. do we decide who they are in these end times?
John gave us a clue about who is of Jesus or not~
2 John 1:9- Whoever transgresses, and stays not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that stays in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son. 10. f there come any to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
I apply this to anyone who calls them-self a follower of Jesus and what they believe about Him. If they do not believe He was born of a virgin, God in the flesh, sinless, son of God? I don't see them as true Christians according to this and don't invite them in when they come knocking on my door, to discuss their latest magazine views.
But, if they do believe the doctrine of Christ and have different views about what I would call "secondary issues"~rapture, baptism in the Holy Spirit for today, water baptism, denominational stuff~I cannot determine their position in Christ by those things. I might disagree with them for what I know or believe to be truth as of today. But they or myself, could be carnal or too wounded in certain areas, to see the truth. It's good to practice~"I could be wrong" on secondary issues, but this is where I am, today. :glow:
None of us have a corner on the truth and are subject to change daily. Maybe both opinions are wrong or one is right is many debates, but only God can determine that person's fate, like going in the rapture. We don't know all things, all the time, but we can study, pray and do our best to obey him as the light shines on our path.
Right now I know what I know, but I might learn something different today. Humility keeps us in that position.
1 Corinth. 8:2-The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.
Bornagaintoserve: but that is my point, both are praying about it, have been praying about it, will continue to pray about it, yet they point still hold to opposite views. Then what?
MrRow: good point about history. While I think there are several issues that have probably been around for a long time and not been resolved, I would agree that a historical context might help solve the problem. I�ll look into that.
MountainLass: well be definition, the way I worded it, they have to be opposites. Like, it�s raining or it�s not raining. Though of course we could add other issues, like X or Y. It�s raining and its sunny. Both could happen.
TwoSparrows: I tend to use the word denomination more loosely, but there is at least one large non-denominational group out there that holds to this view.
Trucker: I agree with about your comment about feeling. I always get a little uncomfortable with people use the word �feel�. So let�s set that one aside. Lets use another examples. Lets say there is another guy out there, he happens to drive a taxi and on a forum he uses the user id Cabbie. Between fairs, he is always studying the word, he is even a Greek immigrant in NY, so he knows the greek for the bible as well. He goes to church (shhh� he goes to a denominational one) lol, but he comes up with a different interpretation than you on what a set of scripture is saying. That is my point. Then what?
