Let me start out by saying that I affirm and fully believe Jesus Christ, to be the one and only begotten of the Father, the "Son" of God. And that he is fully divine and fully human.
Now, let's take a look at some texts here and see what we can glean from them.
"He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 1 John 2:22, 23.
I do not believe they are role playing here so to speak, but that Jesus literally came forth from and out of the Father. There is a definate father and Son relationship here, the Father being older than his Son naturally.
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, Ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God..." John 8:42
"For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world..." John 16:27,28.
What I see here is that there was a time when before he "came out of God" that the Father did not have a son. It wasn't until his Father brought him into existence, out of his very own divine nature, that the Father then had a Son to love. He was brought forth into existence, long before this world was created and the rest of the heavenly universe because God created all things by his Son.
In Hebrews 1 we read:
3�Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4�Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5�For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? So there you have the birth of the Father's Son. He did not always exists as a part of some trinity where they are all equally God and have all existed side by side from eternity unless you count Jesus as being one with the father when he was still within his "loins" if you will, before he became God's Son. The Father is older then his Son.
Take a look at Dan. 7:13, 14.
"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
Here we clearly see that the Father is older then the Son. The Father being called "the ancient of days" and Jesus, the Son of man.
Now I realize this is a very sensitive subject and that we are treading on holy ground as we speak of the nature of the Son of God. I would just like to be able to prayerfully consider these scriptures and not our individual biasis and long standing traditions.
I'd like to suggest you do a little study and read the beginning of every one of Paul's letters and pay attention to how the Father and Son are addressed. In every single instance without fail, the Father is always addressed as God, and Jesus is never addressed as such. He is generally referred to as the "Lord" or God's Son.
Here's a few more scriptures to consider.
No man has seen God at any time. John 1:18 See also 1 John 4:12.
Many men saw Jesus, so how can he be God in the highest sense? For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:15.
Jesus is between God and man. I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17.
The Father is the God of Jesus.
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Cor. 8:6.
This scripture is so clear.
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:5,6.
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 1 Cor. 11:3.
The woman isn't man, man isn't Christ and Christ isn't God, he's the Son of God. He is the express image of God, and God his father was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. That's why Jesus could say, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
But he wasn't actually, literally God, for "no man has ever seen God." But God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
In the same way, Christ is to be in us. That doesn't make us Christ though. But if we are dead to self, then Christ will be living his life through us. When people see us, self should be hid and only Christ is seen. In like manner, Christ emptied himself so that when people saw Christ they saw God.
I could share much more, but I think this is enough to get people to think twice about some of our long standing traditions and interpretations of Scripture and sensitive subjects like this on the nature of Christ.
Thank you for allowing me the freedom to express my views on this subject.
Grace and peace to you,from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many men saw Jesus, so how can he be God in the highest sense? For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:15.
This Scripture you posted speaks of the two natures of Yeshua/Jesus,being both God and Man.
Yeshua mediates between man and God..
Yeshau calimed to be the God of Israel many times within the Scriptures,here are just a few.
John 4:25 The woman saith to him, `I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;'
John 4:26 Jesus saith to her, `I am he , who am speaking to thee.'
John 6:32 Jesus, therefore, said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread out of the heaven; but my Father doth give you the true bread out of the heaven;
John 6:33 for the bread of God is that which is coming down out of the heaven, and giving life to the world.'
John 6:34 They said, therefore, unto him, `Sir, always give us this bread.'
John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, `I am the bread of the life; he who is coming unto me may not hunger, and he who is believing in me may not thirst--at any time;
John 8:12 Again, therefore, Jesus spake to them, saying, `I am the light of the world; he who is following me shall not walk in the darkness, but he shall have the light of the life.'
John 8:23 and he said to them, `Ye are from beneath, I am from above; ye are of this world, I am not of this world;
John 8:24 I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.'
John 8:28 Jesus, therefore, said to them, `When ye may lift up the Son of Man then ye will know that I am he ;
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'
John 9:5 when I am in the world, I am a light of the world.'
John 10:7 Jesus said therefore again to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you--I am the door of the sheep;
John 10:11 `I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;
John 10:36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say--Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
John 13:19 `From this time I tell you, before its coming to pass, that, when it may come to pass, ye may believe that I am he ;
John 14:6 Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
John 15:1 `I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman;
John 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
WHen Yeshua says "I AM" The Pharisses understood what Yeshua said.
They knew He was saying I Am the GOD of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob,this is why they wanted to stone Yeshua.
To the Pharisses Yeshua was blaspheming the name of GOD,and stoning was the consequeces for this.
Let us read what YHWH says who He is to Moses.
Exodus 3:13 And Moses saith unto God, `Lo, I am coming unto the sons of Israel, and have said to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they have said to me, What is His name? what do I say unto them?'
Exodus 3:14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
Exodus 3:15 And God saith again unto Moses, `Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name--to the age, and this My memorial, to generation--generation.
See Yeshua and YHWH share the same name.
John 10:28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
John 10:29 my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father;
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
John 10:31 Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'
John 17:11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we;
John 17:12 when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name;
Robert,I see that you are missing even the basic understanding of Hebrew.
Please Get this book :
How to understand your Bible:
By:
T.Norton Sterret (t)
This would give you a better understanding of the Scriptures.
Please do not think,how can I leard from a book written by a man.
Look at the Ethiopian Eunuch and Philip.
Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Notice verse 31,the Holy Spirit uses people to be able to teach us until we lean upon the Lord ourselves.
I hope these Scripture will be helpful to you understanding the dual nature of Yeshua.
ps:
Rev 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Well, I am no a Morman or Jehovah's Witness. My thoughts on this topic are my own. I have been studying within the Hebrew roots movement quite heavily the past two years. One or my favorite teachers is Brad Scott from www.wildbranch.org. I am fascinated by all the Hebrew I have learned and the Messianic perspective on the scriptures. However there are some areas in prophecy that I'm not in complete agreement with. And as you can see I do not accept the Trinity doctrine. Nor do I believe in the secret rapture doctrine. For instance I do not want to be in the group that is "taken" but in the group that is left or "remains".
There's about a half a dozen or so texts that on the surface makes Jesus out to be God, and then dozens of others that are as clear to me as day that there is only one God, not three, and that is God the Father. This title is used over and over in Paul's epistles. Not once do we ever see the phrase "God the Son", this is why I don't use it. But over and over we do see the phrase, or title "The Son of God", so this is what I go by. In my mind I have to be able to harmonize all the scriptures together, not discounting any of them. And this is why I believe as I do, but I can't stand a whole lot of land own words and reasonings. They just hold no weight to me at all. I won't even read what a person has to say unless I see a lot of scripture.
What I respond to is tactfulness, a loving spirit, scripture, the Hebrew meaning of words and the Greek. Context is everything as well.
So there you have a little better idea where I'm coming from.
My other problem is that I don't have a computer, so I have to type all this out on my Droid. Very tedius!
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Yes he did. See Heb 1:5. Also, I would highly recommend you read this: http://www.smyrna.org/Studies/Truth_About_God.htm. It clears up everything. Let me know what you think.
I don't think this works though...and I'm not sure we can comprehend the nature of eternal beings. Jesus did say "before Abraham was, I AM". It correlates with Exodus 3:14, and I think Jesus was saying He is God. Also, when Satan was tempting Him, He said that no one should tempt God. I do think "Jesus" changed after he entered the world as a human, but I do think He is/was also God. I think this instance here is Jesus, before He was "Jesus".
Joshua 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
15And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
This "Lord" was seen by a man, so it wasn't God the Father, but He also accepted worship, which a created being serving God would not do. This website has a lot of good references about Jesus before He was called "Jesus".
http://www.tecmalta.org/tft156.htm
I just googled it, so I'm not sure what denomination it is, but the references are good.
I've thought of the trinity as three separate "things" that make up one "thing", like a mind/body/spirit makes a "living soul". That seems to make sense, since we are created in God's image. God the Father is the mind, Jesus is the body, and the Holy Spirit is...well..the spirit. They are all the same entity, but separate. No man has seen "God" at any time, so maybe Jesus" is like...the separate physical embodiment of "God". Anyway, it's all basically hypothetical/theory/conjecture, because we don't have much information on the subject, and on top of that, we have a human understanding of how this stuff should work. It's sufficient to say that Jesus is God, just like God is God. I do not think that Jesus is a created being like you're suggesting, but it's a good discussion.
I don't think you read the arrival I suggested. I have no problem calling Jesus God. Only to say his Father is really his Father! His Father is the "most high God". Jesus said his Father is greater then He is. If you look up that word "greater" in Strongs Concordance you will see it means one who is older in age, it means elder. The Father is Jesus's God. On the other hand Jesus is not the God of his Father. The Father refers to him as God, but never says "my" God.
The scripture says "the head of woman is man, and the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God".
This is really as simple as can be that I child can understand this relationship between the Father and his Son, but leave it to man to complicate things and turn it into a mystery.
Jesus really is the "Son of his Father, the Son of God. It's as simple as that.
In the following Scripture Yeshua is not saying that He is less then the father.
Rather He presents Himself as being equal with the Father in Omnipotance-Omniscience and Omnipresence.
This is the reason the Jews,namely the Pharisees wanted to stone Him at every turn they could get.
John 10:27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,
John 10:28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
John 10:29 my Father, who hath given to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of my Father;
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.'
John 10:31 Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'
