Hey, you're totally right about the Genesis 3:10 thing. I should have looked it up before posting. Thanks! As for the scripture about nudity you provided, I feel like I need to investigate the context. I'll look them up and get back to you soon...
@DHTM:
I agree about our attitudes needing to be right, and I'm not saying that we should sit around and sin like crazy, waiting for God to intervene. Let me try to shed some light on my reasoning about God's responsibility to change us.
A lot of what I believe came from a revelation I had about the following passage of scripture:
"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times, I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But He said to me, 'MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me." -2 Corinthians 12:7-9(NIV)
Now this is truly poetic. In this passage, Paul talks about a "thorn" in his flesh. Most scholars believe that this "thorn" was some sort of temptation that Paul was continually facing. We don't know what this temptation was, but it appears that he keeps giving in to it. A sin he couldn't beat, if you will. He prays to God and begs him to take the temptation away. Nothing happens, and Paul gives in again. He prays to God and begs again. Nothing happens, and Paul gives in yet again. Paul cries out to God, begging Him to take the temptation away. This time, God speaks up. (WARNING: LITERARY INTERPRETATION AHEAD!) "Yo! Paulie! Hey, pal, you know what your problem is? You think you should be able to beat this sin. You think I'm testing your spiritual strength. You're wrong. I KNOW you can't beat it. You aren't strong enough. But Paulie-boy, I am! And MY strength is sufficient enough to cover you."
So Paul taps into God's infinate pool of strength and grace, and is finally able to conquer the temptation.
Why would God do this? Why give a disciple a problem that you KNOW they cannot handle? Doesn't God want His children to succeed and triumph over sin? No, God doesn't want us to beat our sin. WHY? Because if we could save ourselves, WE would be God.
This is such a simple concept, yet so many Christians struggle with it because we all want to fight for salvation. Think about it: As soon as we mess up at something, we think, "Oops! What can I do to avoid messing up next time?" Even our pastors will say that we need to change our heart when we sin. We need to look into our lives and figure out what WE need to change to stop sinning. But this is not necessarily what God wants us to do! He wants us to let Him change us. He wants us to trust him to fix us.
When I first studied this passage in college, I was struggling with a dilema. I had lied to someone I loved. I felt very strongly convicted to confess my lie to them, but to do so would put me in danger of ruining that relationship. As I fought with this dilema, I came to the conclusion that the relationship was more important to me than doing what I knew was right. I was telling God, "I'm sorry, but I can't confess my sin to them. I just can't." Then we studied that passage, and it was as if God was saying to me, "I know you can't do it. You're not strong enough, but I am. Let me give you the strength." So I did. I tapped into God's strength and trusted Him. I confessed to my friend and hoped for the best.
Now I don't pretend that my personal philosophies on life are perfect or even refined. I only say what I think and admit defeat when wrong. I'm still young and learning, and I am happy to hear criticism, so feel free to tackle my thoughts as you see fit. I keep an open mind and enjoy being challenged. I do, however, enjoy pushing the limits of comfort and traditional thinking. I hope that I haven't offended anyone by my posts so far, and if I did, please realize it was unintentional. Thank you all for responding honestly.
"This 'Code of Ethics' comes from God. It is Intrinsic in all of us Humans (well, most of us anyway). It is put there by God. The Shame that we feel is Our Soul mourning for our loss of Ethics�of our Sense of Right and Wrong."
I get what you're saying, but I have to disagree with it. Our code of ethics is shaped by our world view. Even though God plants basic instincts to want to "be good" in every human created, our sense of morality is still a result of what we're taught by society. For example, I would feel shame for killing an enemy; however, in some small tribe in Africa that act could be a source of pride instead of shame and guilt.
Each individual decides upon their own morality standards based on their world view. What you have to ask is, "What does God expect of us?" Does God expect us to fit into our standards for ourselves or His own?
I honestly believe that God EXPECTS us to sin. Follow me here. God loves us and accepts us, flaws and all. He does not want us to try to change who we are; that's HIS responsibility, not ours. Our desire to rise above our faults is a product of pride. WE CANNOT TRANSCEND SIN. Only God can remove our desire to sin, and our pitiful attempts to remove it ourselves and meet our own code of ethics will ALWAYS fail. That's why we need God - if we could save ourselves, WE would be God.
I can explain this reasoning if someone would like to know, but it will be a pretty lengthy post... lol like this one! :glow:
Another thing I wanted to respond to:
"Adam and Eve were ashamed because they ate of The Tree of Knowledge and knew about the difference between Right and Wrong (before there was only Right) and KNEW that they did wrong and OFFENDED God. They were Ashamed because they let God down�they Offended Him�they Disappointed God."
In my reference to Adam and Eve, I was talking specifically about the shame they felt at being naked. Nudity is never condemed, so their shame wasn't about right and wrong. It says they realized they were naked, and they were ashamed. It wasn't about disappointing God, it was about disappointing themselves. They were naked before and after the fall, but it wasn't until after the fall that they felt ashamed for it.
Finally, I want to state that conviction is different from shame. Conviction is the belief that you have done something wrong. Shame is the pain that you experience from conviction. The Holy Spirit provides the conviction; we provide the shame. :winksmile:
Okay, brace yourselves: I have a theory that I would like to run by the mass of intellectuals on this site:
My thought today is that pride is the source of shame. Think of it: WHEN DO WE FEEL ASHAMED? When we do something that breaches our code of ethics. WHY DO WE FEEL ASHAMED? Because we, and others, expect better of ourselves. WHY DO WE EXPECT BETTER OF OURSELVES? Because even though we know that humans are inescapably flawed, we believe that we have ascended above the typical human. A.K.A. - Pride.
So when Adam and Eve felt ashamed in the Garden of Eden because they were naked, it was not because God commanded them to wear clothes and they disobeyed. No, it was because they believed that nudity was below them.
Likewise, when I lay stripped bare and naked before God in all the glory of my sinful self, feeling overwhelming shame for all the atrocities buried in my soul, it is only because I sincerely believe that I am above sin. Pride.
So is shame itself a form of sin? I believe that it is a symptom of the disease of pride. I also believe that shame and pride create a cycle of stagnation in the typical Christian's life. We feel pride, and when we fail, we feel shame that reinforces our belief that we ought to be better (pride).
I'm not saying that we should take great pleasure in sinning because it is implanted in our human nature. I'm saying that agknowledging that sin is, and always will be, the biggest influence in our decisions may be the first step into seeing ourselves as God sees us.
Well, thank you! I do plan to stick around... I've been a little short on challenging conversation lately, and this site permits the kind of philosophical discussion that I crave! :glow: I hope you stick around too - We could have some interesting discussions "old man." :winksmile:
Hmm, the one problem with Christians vs. The Bible in today's age is that everyone reads scripture with one purpose in mind: to prove that what they already believe is true. We can each point to scripture that "supports" our beliefs and say, "Well, I'm right because the Bible says I am." Then people start to argue about interpretation and context, and we all get so mixed up in what's theologically right or wrong that we forget about the importance of our relationships with God.
If your heart is right with God, then you will want to please and glorify Him in all that you do. If you're questioning whether a tattoo or piercing is a sin or not, trust and rely on your knowledge of God's being, your relationship with Him, and the convictions of the Holy Spirit to guide you rather than the interpretation of the Bible by other men and women. And when you read the Bible and read these non-specific passages, keep an open mind and heart; allow God to direct your conclusion instead of your previously-formed opinion.
Also, keep in mind that regarding all the laws and commandments given to us in the Bible, the law itself is not nearly as important as why God gave it. God banned Moses from entering the Promised Land because he struck a rock. Does that mean that it drives God crazy when humans go around beating up helpless rocks? Um, no. God banned Moses from the Promised Land because by striking the rock that brought forth water for the dehydrated Israelites, Moses was attempting to bring glory to himself instead of God.
Hope this helps you reason out the questions you have.
