Well it seems like I'm a bit behind the ball on this one, but I belive that tithing, while an excellent idea (please understand I'm NOT knocking tithing - the Bible is explicitly clear that those who tithe regularly will be blessed) is NOT required under the new covenant.
It was a commandment under the Law, however Jesus abolished the Law with his death on the cross and resurrection. Nowhere under the New Covenant are we commanded to tithe...again, I'm NOT saying you shouldn't, or that it's not a good idea...I'm simply saying we are no longer required to.
GRACE baby! THANK God for his AMAZING grace, by which we are saved - for it is the gift of GOD, NOT by works, so that NO man can boast.
If you choose to live under law, then you had better be able to keep the WHOLE thing, or else you will be damned by your own choice...if you choose to LIVE by grace, GOD will save you, obliterate your sins and FREE you to spread the GOOD news of His Grace.
Thanks for your further explanations. It certainly helped me to understand more of where you are coming from, however I must admit that I still don't see how those passages are connected however without some Biblical proof of the connection I must respectfully continue to disagree with you. For example, you cited the passage from Jeremiah 4 saying that
"In (Jer. 4:23-26) we see Jeremiah being shown the total destruction of life on the earth to reveal how the land of Judah would be destroyed, and to make a comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed, but in Judah God was to make an exception (Jer. 4:27). God declared He would NOT make a fullend as on the original earth."
If God is going to make an exception and these two scenarios are not the same, (i.e. no total destruction) then they cannot really be compared with reference to the command to populate the earth. Regardless - I have not seen anywhere in any of these passages a command to mankind to RE-populate the earth, which I believe was your original point in referencing these scriptures? At this point we are simply debating points that have no bearing on the original discussion..
Now, allow me to address a couple of points...
1) You said that there was a corrupt social system in place pre Genesis 1:2...well Biblically there is NO evidence of that, and pre-Genesis 1:2 is PRE CREATION, therefore there was no earth, no social system, no life in this dimension.
2) I am not debating the RIGHT of man to have dominion over the earth, or the fact that it is now available to us again through Jesus on the cross. I am simply saying that by SUBMITTING ourselves to Satan and his purposes on earth we essentially gave him that dominion UNTIL such time as Jesus came and released us from bondage to Satan. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree because I know I am 110% convinced I am right on this, and I'm sure you are just as convinved...however I will make a few more arguments for the sake of discussion...
3) True that Satan is known as a liar, even the father of lies, HOWEVER keep in mind that he was talking to Jesus, who although he was 100% man, was also 100% God during his time on earth - and Satan knew this. Despite being able to seemingly fool us at will, he cannot hide anything from God, and do you not think that God, being the author of truth, and light Himself would have disputed Satan's claim to dominion over the earth if it were not true?
I would also like to point you to 1 John 5:19 in which John clearly states "the whole world is under the control of the evil one". In addition to that, Jesus himself (who cannot lie) called Satan the prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11). Paul called him the God of this age (2 Corinthians 4:4) and the ruler of the kingdom of the air (Ephesians 2:2). It is my humble opinion that these scriptures prove that Satan has (had) dominion (or legal right) over the earth until Jesus wrested it back from him for us by his accomplished work on the cross. It is now simply up to us to take it back. Also, by your own admission you said Satan was the ruler of the world...a ruler has dominion does he now? Dominion simply means the power or right of governing or controlling. How can anyone look around today and truly say that Satan is not in dominion of the earth? This is especially trajic since for over 2000 years now, that dominion has been ours for the taking again. Unfortunately most people dont realize that.
4) One more thing that I cannot overlook that Dake mentioned in that commentary you quoted. That is is statement that there can be no absolute interpretation of the Bible - if he truly means what he stated here that is a very scary thought. If you (or anyone) truly believes that there is no absolute interpretation of the Bible, then perhaps Jesus wasnt the Son of God? Perhaps he didn't really die on the cross for our sins? Perhaps its OK for me to steal, murder, fornicate as I will? Yes, this is an extreme, but where do we draw the line? There HAS to absolutely HAS TO be absolute interpretation of the Bible or there can be no absolute truth. Just my humble opinion...
OK, back from the gym, settled in front of the TV with the Olympics on in the background...and am ready to get into this lol.
I would like to point you to some scriptures that support my belief which I briefly outlined in my previous post (and many scholars and theologians agree with me on this). Take a look if you will at Ezekiel 28:12-19
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, [a] turquoise and beryl. [b]
Your settings and mountings [c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "
Now, it would initially appear that this passage (the most complete biography - if you will - of Lucifer in the Bible) is addressed to an earthly king - however upon closer examination we see that this is not possible due to the language used and descriptions in the passage. Many people agree that this passage is actually talking about Lucifer as previously mentioned.
"You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty...you were in Eden the garden of God...you were anointed as a guardian cherub...you were blameless in your ways till wickedness was found in you...your heart became proud on account of your beauty...so i threw you to the earth...I reduced you to ashes on the ground...you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.
It is my belief that this passage is initially describing Lucifer as he was following his creation - beautiful, adorned in glory, full of wisdom, anointed and blameless. The middle and final section of this passage then addresses his sins and God's judgment on those sins, both judgments that have already been accomplished, and judgments that are yet to come. There is a mood change when looking at the original language between verses 17 and 18 - the word mood in verse 17 when referring to his heart becoming proud and him being thrown to the earth etc is the "perfect", which refers to a completed action. The mood in verses 18 referencing the actions God will perform in punishment of Lucifer are described in the "imperfect" which expresses something that has not yet been completed which indicates that these judgments on Lucifer are still to come (or were at the time this was written anyway - my personal belief is that they are describing part of what will be God's final judgment on Lucifer).
Another scripture that supports my belief can be found in Revelation, the 12th chapter. I would like to point you specifically to verses 4, 7 and 9. These verses talk about the war in heaven (7), the casting down of the dragon (Satan) from heaven (9), and about how his (the dragon's) tail drew with him a third of the stars (most scholars believe these to be angels) in the sky when he fell. This is more debatable than the previous point, and not really relevant to the original discussion, however I figured I might as well throw it in...
NOW, on to the original topic, a couple of scriptures that support my belief that mankind WAS given dominion over the earth originally and handed it off to Satan through their deception by him and the resulting fall. As also mentioned, I do believe that dominion is now available to us again through the completed work of Jesus on the cross.
First off I would like to point you to Luke 4:5-7 when Satan was tempting Jesus.
5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
Clearly stated in this passage is the fact that Satan had all authority (at this point in time) over all the kingdoms of the world, and had the power to give it to whom he chose. Now this is important because it not only establishes that Satan did in fact have dominion over the earth, it also confirms the fact that the dominion which was originally given to man CAN in fact be transferred based on the actions of the person who holds it.
Now, lets take a look at John 12:27-32. In this passage we see Jesus predicting his death on the cross, and in verse 31 He makes an undeniably clear statement "Now is the judgment of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out". This is KEY in our understanding of the fact that Satan had dominion over this world up to the moment of Jesus death and resurrection. The reason this is such a key statement is because IF mankind were actually still in dominion over the world prior to the death/resurrection of Jesus, then this statement would make NO SENSE whatsoever. Jesus by his own admission will never leave nor forsake us (mankind) which is categorically opposite to casting out. If mankind were in dominion of the world at the point this was spoken that would make Jesus out to be a liar, which we obviously know is not the case - therefore is stands to reason that mankind was in fact NOT in dominion of the world at this point. However if Satan were in dominion of the world, then verse 31 makes perfect sense. I rest my case.
Another passage that touches on this subject is Ephesians 2, specifically the first few verses. Now, allow me to address the scriptures you posted (I am aware that this post is getting long...I will try to keep it brief)...beginning with the first one - Genesis 9.
Looking at the original language, in Genesis 9:1 God did indeed command Noah and his family to replenish the earth. The important distinction here is that God was talking to NOAH, not Adam and this command was given POST-FLOOD which had just wiped out the entire population of the earth. In that context, the command makes perfect sense, however it is irrelevant to this discussion.
Your second passage bears no apparent connection to the discussion at hand at all. I cannot see any reference to any form of command in here, let alone one to replenish the earth. It does talk about an absence of man, however as this is a lament for a doomed nation, I see no connection at all. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
Next you referenced Isaiah 2:6, and again, I must confess I see absolutely no connection. This passage is a description of the state of a portion of the nation of Israel and nowhere even in any of the surrounding verses do I see anything resembling a command to replenish the earth.
Next up, Jeremiah 31:25 - well this passage actually has the word replenish found in it, albeit without any bearing on our current discussion...this passage is describing the tail end of a dream Jeremiah had and this portion is prophesying the future prosperity and blessing that is to come on Judah. Jeremiah 31:25 "For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul"
Second to last you mentioned Ezekiel 26:2, which again has no bearing that I can see on this discussion. It is the beginning of a proclamation by Ezekiel against Tyre prophesying is destruction. Nothing to do with any command to populate or re-populate the earth.
Finally, you mentioned Genesis 1:28 where man was commanded to "be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves on the earth. Now if we look to the original language used here, the word used is actually replenish, the same word as is used in Genesis 9 when God is talking to Noah, HOWEVER when we look at the definition of this word (Strong's number 04390) it means simply to fill. Nowhere in the definition of this word is any hint of anything that may indicate they were re-filling the earth. God essentially said to them go, be fruitful and fill the earth. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well, I feel like I have rambled on long enough - I hope you can find some interesting food for thought in here and that this is challenging you to grow and expand your understanding...'cause isn't that the whole point?? If you would like to discuss further, I am happy to...I would only ask that you please do more than simply list off scripture references without any exhortation if you would like to pursue this further.
Thank-you for allowing me to share my opinion, garnered from much study and thought/prayer.
Thanks for the welcome back cattle...it has been a while hasnt it?!
Leon - I do agree with you that by rights, Man has dominion over the earth - however we gave that away and even though Christ won it back for us, it is up to us to make the move out of our self-imposed "cage" and to actually step into that dominion again.
As far as your views about Lucifer holding dominion before the creation of the world, well personally I don't believe that is the case at all, simply because it is not possible as the world was not yet in existence according to the Bible.
My (granted, perhaps somewhat limited) understanding, and the way I have always been taught and what I have always understood to be true through my studies is that the earth was simply not in existence prior to the moment of creation described in Genesis. Heaven (not the heavens i.e. skies, but the dwelling place of God - more than likely in another dimension that our limited understanding cannot fully grasp) was however in existence. This is where God was to be found, and all the angels, generally believed to be have been divided into three groupings if you will. The warrior angels lead by Michael, messenger angels lead by Gabriel and worshipping angels lead by Lucifer.
Essentially Lucifer became jealous and lead a rebellion against God and tried to install himself in place of God - leading of course to his defeat and banishment from heaven to earth which was appointed as a place of punishment and waiting for him and his followers (the worshipping third of the angels). It was as a result of this banishment and his downfall that he was mad at God. And of course being trapped on earth he had no way to get back at God, except to attempt to take down God's prized creation, Mankind, which as we know he succeeded in.
I don't have time to really get into it in detail right this minute as I am on my way out the door to the gym, but I will post more later. I looked briefly at your scriptures which seem to be largely taken out of context (I have only looked at them briefly mind you, will look in more detail later this afternoon), and actually say nothing (as far as I can see right now) about Man being commanded to RE-plenish the earth as you said. The sole possible exception is the Genesis 9 passage where God tells NOAH to fill the earth (I haven't looked yet, but it is certainly possible the original language meant replenish), however that makes perfect sense since this was roughly 2000 years post-creation and there had just been a cataclysmic flood that destroyed all humanity except the 8 people that were on the ark. So God telling Noah to re-plenish the earth would make perfect sense, despite its irrelevance to the discussion at hand.
ANYWAY, as mentioned I am off to the gym and will post in more detail later today.
Just a few thoughts...I agree in principle with most of what I have seen here...just wanted to add my two cents worth :D
1) There's no such thing as differing levels of Christian. Either you are or you arent. Simple.
2) There are people who say they are Christian but arent - many of them actually. These are (usually - not always) the ones who talk the loudest, argue the hardest and are the most often found in the spotlight.
3) It is NOT up to us to decide or judge who is Christian and who isn't. It IS up to us to LIVE, LOVE and BE as Christ - the rest is up to him.
4) Christians should strive to be humble, loving, caring, compassionate, honest, trustworthy etc - in short, we should be spending out time getting to know Jesus and as a result of that becoming more and more like him every day.
Wow, I must say I am not overly impressed with all the argueing in here these days. Not Godly for two people who so vehemently profess to believe the Bible and its truth...just a thought.
On the subject of the discussion, however I believe that you are both somewhat right and somewhat in error. This is my belief based on what I have learned through my studies...
1) Mas was originally given dominion over the world and everything in it by God.
2) Man, as posessors of said dominion was "in charge" if you will of the earth - it was ours to oversee.
3) Man was tempted by Lucifer in the Garden of Eden and part of the result of the fall was man's loss of dominion as a by-product of what essentially amounted to our submission to Lucifer and his wishes. Mankind GAVE their dominion to Satan. It WAS ours and we GAVE it away.
4) JESUS was sent to earth by God the Father to pay the price for our sins and re-establish our place with God for all eternity. He defeated Satan once and for all on the cross, freeing us from the penalty of our misdeeds and opening the door for us to re-take dominion of the world, under His Grace.
Allow me to paint you a little picture...Adam and Eve are in the Garden, living and loving their life - WITH dominion over the world, granted by God and OURS by His grace. Satan comes along, tempts Eve and thereby causes her and Adam to stumble into the "cage" of sin. Once they are inside this proverbial cage, Satan is then by right of posession in dominion of this earth - we have allowed him to undermine us, cage us up and take our dominion away from us. When Jesus defeats Satan on the cross, he unlocks our "cage" and re-establishes our dominion through said defeat...HOWEVER if we choose to stay in the cage of sin, we will never be able to fully appreciate or understand that dominion.
Now one or both of you may disagree with me, and that's ok...you are certainly allowed to - part of free will is that we are all free to believe as we choose - I simply ask that you not belittle what I have come to believe.
Thanks and God bless and guide you into understanding by His grace
Genesis 2 is a "re-cap" or more indepth look if you will at the work of creating that God did on day 6 - NOT another round of creating. EVERYTHING was created in 6 days, and on the seventh day God rested.
Adam and Eve had many children - first of all, we dont know how long they were in the garden - could have been any number of years...personally I like to think that God didnt start counting years until after the fall...but thats just my own little bit of imagination **(PLEASE NOTE - I am NOT advocating that the earth is billions of years old or anything like that...I believe the earth is roughly 6500-10000 years old - but it is possible that Adam and Eve lived in the garden for a hundred or two hundred years before they fall...time in which they would not have aged since the law of sin and death had not yet taken effect)...they could have been there for a few days, weeks, years or a couple centuries. But that's really a moot point.
God created Adam and Eve - two people. He didn't create any other people. They had MANY children....and yes, their children intermarried. Remember that Adam and Eve were created with ALL the possibilities for ALL mankind that we see in every person around us today...there would have been NO problem with their children intermarrying...no adverse side effects since they were so close to the source/origin if you will. Also - it wouldn't have taken long before there were hundreds of thousands of people on earth...most of them complete strangers to each other.
PS - i forgot to say...PLEASE, please, please dont misinterpret what i am saying in the last bit of my post to say that god created sin - i am NOT saying that in any way, shape or form.
i have read a good amount of this thread...not nearly all i must confess as many of the posts were very long, but a good amount....and have just a few thoughts to share. its possible that these have already been debated/covered in portions that i didnt read and if so i apologize...but i would like to humbly offer my opinion.
on the original topic of loss of salvation and a few points i would like to make sort of pertaining to that/arising out of that in the discussion thread...i believe...
1) it IS possible to lose your salvation. once saved is NOT necessarily always saved - john 15 implies this.
2) someone truly living fully in the grace of god will not lose their salvation - if you are living in the grace of god you will of course sin - sins cannot separate you from god when you are living in his grace however. jesus paid the price for our sins once for all on the cross with his death and resurrection. - galations, hebrews talk about this...
3) separation from god occurs when we separate ourselves from the grace of god by choosing to live as if we were still under law, not grace - its a subtle mindset shift that drastically affects our life - and one the enemy is constantly trying to get us to give in to. when we surrender as a result of his attacks (guilt, shame, fear, humiliation) to a way of thinking that binds us to the law again, we are in fact separating ourselves from god and that place of righteousness his grace affords us...paul talks about this...you have now become a victim of the sin of unbelief. unbelief that jesus' sacrifice on the cross is all that is needed, unbelief that we are in fact righteous by the grace of god, uneblief that sins cannot separate us from god. unbelief that god's grace is big enough to cover anything...and so on...this leads me to my final point on/surrounding this subject
4) the only unforgiveable sin is the sin of unbelief. think about it - how can god forgive unbelief? he himself said the ONLY way to be saved was to believe in jesus, that he is the son of god, died on the cross and rose again and to confess it. now, tell me - if you dont believe (and YES that is a sin - see john 16:8-9) and god has clearly said belief is necessary for salvation, how can he overlook (forgive) that? even if he were to say, i forgive you your sin of unbelief, he can't make you believe...'cause we all have free will...forgive means to pardon and put behind you - as far as east is from west...so even if god "forgives" your unbelief, you still wont believe...therefore its not truly forgiven...
i dont know about you, but seems pretty straightforward to me.
now, just a couple thoughts on free will/god knowing man would sin etc...as came up in the last couple posts...
1) man has complete free will.
2) god knew before he created us what would happen - and hard (impossible?!) as that may be for our minds to comprehend that doesnt take away our free will.
now, allow me to elaborate a bit. god created man for relationship with him. that is our original created purpose - to be in relationship with god. god created angels to serve, worship and adore him. lucifer was head of the worshipping angels until pride crept in and ultimately lead to him leading a rebellion against god, which ended in him and one third of the angels being cast out of heaven and bound on the earth. hell was originally created for them - it will be their place of final, unending judgement. man sinned as a result of lucifers anger and jealousy toward god - he wanted to get back at god and so tried to take down his prized creation - and succeeded. god then had to send his son, jesus to reestablish our direct connection with god. now im off track tho....so god created everything, and created it perfect. perfect love, perfect worship, perfect good, perfect relationship.....NOW...heres the kicker. in order for there to be perfect love there HAS TO, absolutely HAS TO be the possibility of the opposite happening. without choice there can be no perfect love, no perfect worship, good, relationship or anything else perfect. without the possibility of hatred there cannot be true love - if there is no choice its not genuine and therefore is not true or perfect.
so because god wanted perfect relationship with man, he therefore HAD to allow for the POSSIBILITY of that relationship not being there (the reason for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) - and lucifer knew that and took full advantage. god had to give us free will because he wanted us to truly love him.
now, i know i didnt include a ton of scriptures in here...honestly i dont have them all memorized and dont have the time to look them all up right now - have to work early in the morning - but please believe me when i say i am not just spouting random stuff off the top of my head. i have spend countless hours studying the word, sitting under biblical teaching and in discussion with my friends, church leaders, pastors and other people i highly respect on these topics.after much study i believe that what i am saying is biblically sound...you may disagree with me, thats fine and you are absolutely allowed to have your opinion...please however dont disrespect me by saying or implying that i am not studied, have not put in the time and/or dont know what im talking about - i fully realize that i have things to learn still and am more than willing to discuss...but would appreciate your mutual respect in that discussion.
