Thread: Are there any Calvinistic girls out there?
Admin
Are there any Calvinistic girls out there?
Posted : 23 Jan, 2011 09:47 PM
I do not really like the term "Calvinism", but it get's the point across with out having to write down every single doctrine. I just want some good discussion. If you do not adhere to the Doctrines of Grace please don't reply :).
Ok, that's a very good example to use. According to your example, God would look through all of time to see who would exercise some faith in him (even if it is only a very small amount). Hypothetically, God made a list of all these people and gave it to Jesus and said, "Here. Because I do not create the future, I simply am so wise that I know what everyone will do and I try to work within that, I went and looked through time to see if anyone would believe in you. This is the list of all who will believe in you. You need to die for them because they need to be rewarded for choosing us, they are the wisest of all creation for which cause their sins should be forgiven, and they have conformed my will to their own. They should be proud to have been chosen by me." This example is clearly unscriptural for a vast number of reasons.
1) God's foreknowledge in Romans 8: 29 means far more than to simply know what will happen. Romans 8:29 says, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." First of all, this term is used in the Old Testament Hebraic sense in which "know" is practically synonymous with "love" (see for some examples: Gen. 18:19; Exod. 2:25; Psalm 1:6; 144:3). Thus, you could rightly say "whom He foreloved." The Bible teaches that election is "according to His own pleasure" (Eph. 1:9). It is �after the counsel of His own will� (Eph. 1:11). Also, if you continue reading in Romans 8:30-39, you will find that God's love is not a passive, waiting, helpless love but that it is an active love and the most ultimate, determining act in salvation; not man believing. If man's free choice was the determining factor of salvation, then man could easily lose his salvation - God could only do so much. However, Paul teaches that God has predestined on the basis of those whom he has loved, and whom he has predestined he will justify, and those whom he justifies he will glorify. Salvation is certain only for the elect because "God is for us" (v.31) and therefore, man could never lose his salvation.
2) If God's choice was dependent upon who would seek him, even the tiniest bit, or who would put even the most insignificant amount of faith in him, then we can be certain that according to Scripture, no one would be saved for no one is capable of doing either of those at all. Ephesians 2 says "you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked) v.1-2). And by "dead" the Bible really means "dead." Romans 8:7-8 teaches that the carnal mind is enmity against God because it cannot be subject to the law of God so that "those who are of the flesh cannot please God." Indeed, even "the plowing of the wicked [is] sin" (Prov. 21:4). If we have all been born in sin and have a sinful nature, then none of us will seek God, nor are we able. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spot? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jeremiah 13:23).
This is why Scripture never, I repeat, never attributes salvation to an act of human will, or choice. "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9:16). *"You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).* "Without me, you can do nothing" (John 15:5). And Jesus literally meant nothing! The unregenerate do not seek God (Ps. 14:2-3; Is. 65:1; Rom. 11:3, 10:20). They cannot repent (Jer. 13:23; 2 Pt. 2:13-14, 22; Ac. 11:18). They cannot understand or receive spiritual truth (Jn. 3:3; 1 Cor. 3:20-21). They are under the power of satan (2 Cor. 4:3-4; Ac. 26:17-18; 2 Tim. 2:26). The unregenerate are helpless (Rom. 5:6; Ez. 44:9, 11:19, 36:26).
3) For these reasons, the Bible says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. *And this is not of your own doing; it is the gift of God,* not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). Faith is a gift from God, it does not originate from our own hearts. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adultries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (MT. 15:19). "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?"
Um, that will have to suffice for now cuz I have to go to work lol. I hope that is not overwhelming...
Here is my very simplistic way of thinking about election. God is omniscient (all-knowing). Because He knows everything that will ever happen, He also knows who will and who will not choose Him. Call that "election" if you want to. But I don't think that God looked through all the people who would be born and said "I think I'll choose you, and you, and you...but NOT you. You aren't one of the lucky ones. Oh, but you'll do. Not you. And not you either." I don't see where a loving God would do that. He has every RIGHT to, but the Bible also says that God wants to draw ALL people to him.
Like I said in an earlier post, I'm not looking for an argument.
Yeah, none of us want to argue. Discussion, on the other hand, is very good. Talking about God's Word for mutual edification should be encouraged since Scripture is the ultimate authority and not our ideas about it =)
Reply to : Me! Right here! 5 point Calvinist in the flesh! I think man is spiritually dead, not spiritually sick. Thus, man could never make his way to God. This means that Christ had to do more than just die and wait to see who would accept him; it means Christ had to die for specific people and not only make a way to God, but give an individual the ability to come to him. This means that God had to choose, according to His own merits and good will, whom He would save. And because God is sovereign and His will cannot be denied, if God wants to save you, you will be saved. Finally, since God has done all the work in salvation and He cannot lie, if He has died for you and declared you righteous and made you alive, then you cannot walk away nor can anything steal you from His grasp =)
Then why does the bible talk about the backslidden?
2 Peter 2:21 ESV / For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Jeremiah 3:22 NIV / "Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding." "Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God.
Right there! Right there it says you can walk away.... I hate to say this but Calvanism puts such a bad taste in my mouth and makes way for Country Club churches.
Well, I'd like to start off with something that we both agree with and that is that Scripture is perfect and the ultimate authority for our beliefs. Therefore, if there is a contradiction in a belief and something that is clearly taught in Scripture, the belief is wrong, not Scripture. This of course requires a proper interpretation of Scripture. So, I would like to look at whether or not the correct interpretation of the verses you listed and those like it is that a person whom God has made alive could ever go back to death, in other words, whether a person can lose their salvation.
A very important rule about interpretation is that Scripture interprets Scripture. In other words, we must interpret the unclear parts of Scripture by the clearer parts. For example, in Acts 2:38 Peter says, �Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins�� At first glance, it may appear that Peter is teaching that you must be baptized in order to be saved, but we know from other parts of Scripture that this is not the case at all (Ephesians 2:8-9; Luke 23:39-43; Romans 4:5, 5:1, 9:30, 11:6).
Now, we come to verses that seem to teach a person can walk away from God, and sort of �give up� their salvation. Is this interpretation possible or does it contradict a clear teaching of Scripture? I would argue the latter - it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture, consider the following:
�For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; they are preserved forever�� (Ps. 37:28)
�He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber.� The Lord shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul. The Lord shall preserve your going out and your coming in from this time forth, and forevermore.� (Ps. 121:3,7-8)
�Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.� (Eph. 5:25)
�Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.� (Philippians 1:6)
�For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless, I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.� (2 Tim. 1:2)
�And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!� (2 Tim. 4:18)
�To an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.� (1 Pt. 1:4-5)
�To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.� (Jude 1)
�My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father�s hand.� (Jn. 10:27-29)
These verses all point out that our perseverance is God�s work! God preserves us - He really does give us *eternal* life to which the Holy Spirit is a down payment, He really does transfer us into the kingdom of God from the kingdom of Satan, He really does declare us righteous and holy, He really does wash us in the blood of the Lamb and renew our minds, He really does forgive *all* our sins � past, present, and future � He really does�save us. This is why we can have assurance and hope in the God of our salvation! We can be at peace with the assurance that God has saved us (Heb. 3:14; 6:11; 10:22; 2 Pet. 1:10). If we could lose our salvation at any time, then there would be no assurance and only a weak hope.
I would interpret those verses you mentioned and others like it to mean that someone can profess faith and yet not have it realized in them. The Bible speaks plainly that the evidence of true repentance and true salvation is endurance. If you endure to the end, you are really saved, and if you don�t, you were never truly saved. �Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, �If you abide in My word you are My disciples indeed�� (Jn. 8:31). �And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight�if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard� (Col. 1:21-23). �For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end� (Heb. 3:14; cf. Jn. 15:6, 7, 10, 14; Heb. 2:1-3; 1 Cor. 15:1-2). The passages which speak of Christians �falling away,� do not speak of real Christians losing their salvation, but of unbelief becoming evident. Wolves in sheep clothing do certainly exist and there are certainly tares among the wheat because, just as Jesus taught, there are many who profess faith in Jesus who do not know Him.
I want to conclude this post with a quote from Charles Spurgeon in his sermon on 1 Peter 5:10 in which Peter prays, �But the God of all grace who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered awhile, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.�
�Do you imagine that God will begin to sculpture out a perfect being and not complete it? Do you think that the hand of divine wisdom will sketch the Christian and not fill up the details? Hath God taken us as unhewn stones out of the quarry, and hath he begun to work upon us, and show his divine art, his marvelous wisdom and grace, and will he afterwards cast us away? Shall God fail? Shall he leave his works imperfect? Point, if you can, my hearers, to a world which God has cast away unfinished. Is there one speck in his creation where God hath begun to build but was not able to complete? Hath he made a single angel deficient? Is there one creature over which it cannot be said, �This is very good?� And shall it be said over the creature twice made [a born again Christian] � the chosen of God, the blood-bought � shall it be said, �The Spirit began to work in this man�s heart, but the man was mightier than the Spirit, and sin conquered grace? Oh, my dear brethren, the prayer shall be fulfilled. After that ye have suffered awhile, God shall make you perfect if he has begun the good work in you.�
