Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.
"when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and *believed* in him":winksmile:
Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
I think God predestinates kind of like he chose Israel, and not all Israel will be saved. I think it's more like a corporate ordination to a certain purpose, like the church is predestined to be the foundation of truth, or Christians are predestined to saved and spread the gospel, but only those that are faithful are considered part of it anyway. The ones that fall away "were never part of us", even if they may have had faith and had been "grafted in" for a while.
Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 11
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
God also predestines based on foreknowledge, and since that is the case, his predestination never needs to obstruct or circumvent the free will that He created us with.
Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Matthew 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. 4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few are chosen.
God called people to the wedding feast and they treated it lightly and killed his servants, which is a very close illustration of Israel, especially the pharisees. So God called a different group, and yet even in that group, there was one that was trying to enter the feast with his own "works"/garment, instead of being clothed in the wedding garment/Christ's righteousness, and he was cast out. Both times God called, does this parable then mean his word returned to him void? God invited people to and prepared the feast for people that he knew would not come or accept it? That actually ties into our other discussion a little, eh?:winksmile: The garments are representative of "works", either Christ's or ours. I believe that if we have faith/believe in Christ's works as the only hope for salvation, we have his wedding garment to cover our filthy rags. If not, we are cast into outer darkness. That's my interpretation of it anyway, and I think it fits with other parables like:
Matthew 18:21-35
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Matthew 25:14-30
King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I think it's important to note that some are bidden to the wedding feast, some bear fruit, some are given talents, some hear the word, some receive forgiveness, yet are then cast out when they become unfruitful, or do not have mercy, or trust in their own righteousness. Again, is God giving these things to people He knows will reject it or fall away? I think yes, and I think they all support unlimited atonement/impartiality and free will. The degree to which they support my beliefs is, of course, my perception. I'd like to hear what you think as well.
"God also predestines based on foreknowledge, and since that is the case, his predestination never needs to obstruct or circumvent the free will that He created us with."
This is not the case. Romans 8 speaks of "those whom" He foreknew. You want us to read it as "For those whom God saw future faith in" I ask, who is reading the text plainly and who is adding? Another example of God foreknowing the people themselves in Romans 11:2... "2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew"....Furthermore, God foreknows everyone, so "those whom He foreknew" can't simply mean everyone that God knew. Not everyone is eventually saved. You are also leaving out that word "predestined", which clearly would come before. God didn't look and see some future event and then predestine it. My view is clearly in line with Acts 13:48 which teaches that all those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Notice the appointing came first.
Examples of "know" to show it doesn't mean knowledge or foresight when it speaks of the relationship between God and His children...
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. 1 Corinthians 8:3
23 And then will I declare to them, �I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. Matthew 7:23
Is God lying? Did He really not know them? Or did He not know them in a specific, intimate way? The choice is clear.
Here is a good article highlighting the non reformed errors surrounding the verse in question. I haven't included all of it, but a good portion because it's important to understand these things and to let the scriptures speak for themselves...
Foreknowledge determined the coming of Christ, not merely foresaw it
The meaning of foreknowledge, when used of divine decisions, refers to appointed. It is similar to foreordained in connection with election. It is the person who is foreknown, or appointed to salvation, not some quality in that person.
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, ... Acts 2:23 [1]
Here, determined purpose and foreknowledge are linked by a Greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous. It is used for emphasis, like saying right and good or evil and bad. The word determined here is formed of the same verb from which predestination is derived.
Peter declares the coming of Christ was both arranged and appointed by God.
He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world... 1Peter 1:20
The word foreordained here is PROGINOSKO - foreknow. In the case of Christ, God�s foreknowledge was more than merely predictive. It would be absurd to say the Father merely foreknew the coming of Christ. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Christ, not Christ for history.
For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Acts 4:27-28
The same pattern applies to the election of each believer. Those who oppose this principle tend to use 1Peter 1:2.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father�
Foreknowledge in verse 3 and foreordained in verse 20 are the same Greek word, and mean the same. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as Redeemer. In verse 2, it refers again to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.
Notice Peter says for obedience, not because of obedience. He wishes all to understand that God appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as Redeemer. The intent is to emphasize our security in Christ. Any other interpretation fails to explain the use of the same word in the context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ.
Foreknowledge renders the term �predestination� meaningless
It makes it passive rather than the active verb that it is. Predestination is the Greek word PROORIZO. PRO means before and ORIZO means to establish boundaries. Thus it means to establish boundaries beforehand.
God set up the circumstances surrounding our lives to ensure the fulfillment of our foreordination as the Elect. If God merely foresaw who would accept Him, why would He set up boundaries beforehand?
This proves the choice was His, not ours. Foreordain refers to our appointment as His elect, whereas predestinate refers to the outworking of God�s electing decree. Note the passive tense in these verses.
�having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:5
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29
Romans 8:29 merits special comment. The term foreknew here carries the meaning foreordain because of the context.
In verse 28 Paul has just explained all things work together for good to those who love God, and who have been called according to his purpose.
What are the grounds for believing this? God has already done His appointing and preparing before the world began, to ensure the accomplishment of our salvation. That's why we can believe everything works together for our good.
The Lexicon Louw & Nida translates this verse as: Those whom he had chosen beforehand, he had already decided should become like his Son.
Rom. 8:29.
Foreknowledge assumes God is unwilling or unable to encroach on the limits of man�s will
To the contrary:
Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel 4:28-35
As a result of this Babylonian king�s pride, God removed his sanity for seven years; his reason, free will and all. Did God ask permission to do this? Nebuchadnezzar learned, ...He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, What have You done?
The Antichrist and the Ten Nations
For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. Rev.17:17
The Egyptians
And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen. Exodus 14:17
The kings of the Earth
The king�s heart is in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Proverbs 21:1
Foreknowledge puts the ultimate choice on man rather than God, which the scriptures categorically deny
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Romans 9:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you... John 15:16
Foreknowledge implies God�s control is merely passive rather than active
My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, Isaiah 46:10
...according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. Philippians 3:21
...upholding all things by the word of His power. Hebrews 1:3
Foreknowledge assumes faith precedes election
This is an error. We believe because we are His sheep. It is not our faith that makes us sheep.
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep� John 10:26
Appointing those for eternal life comes before faith, not vice verse
And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48
The promise of salvation is available only to those the Lord calls
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. Acts 2:39
Jesus reveals the Father to whom He wills
...and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 12:27
See John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 45, 65; 17:6, 9, 11, 20.
Conclusion
The term foreknowledge supports the doctrine of sovereign election, rather than explains it away. When used regarding divine activity, especially in connection with election, it refers to the appointment of a person rather than the result of a divine attraction to a positive quality in the person. The Bible teaches election by the sovereign grace of God, without regard to any foreseen condition in man.
"God called people to the wedding feast and they treated it lightly and killed his servants"
No He sent servants out to invite people to the wedding feast. This is consistent with the reformed view that the gospel call goes out to everyone. The disciples of Christ(us) are to spread the gospel to everyone. However, you cannot confuse this with saying that God intends for everyone to come to the wedding feast, just as you cannot say that God intends for everyone to come to salvation. I asked how the verses you gave showed man having a free will. They did not. They simply showed man rejecting the invitation to the wedding feast which is also consistent with the reformed view.
I left this out initially but feel it's important...
"The same pattern applies to the election of each believer. Those who oppose this principle tend to use 1Peter 1:2.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father�
Foreknowledge in verse 3 and foreordained in verse 20 are the same Greek word, and mean the same. In verse 20, it refers to Jesus himself in his appointment as Redeemer. In verse 2, it refers again to an appointment, in this case of believers appointed to obedience.
Notice Peter says for obedience, not because of obedience. He wishes all to understand that God appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as Redeemer. The intent is to emphasize our security in Christ. Any other interpretation fails to explain the use of the same word in the context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ."
"And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding"
I would assume that it means they were already told/invited, and the servants went out to tell them it was ready, but either way, the people in question that Jesus is referring to are the Israelites, and they were called/chosen/promised. At the end of the parable, "many are called, but few are chosen".
"Notice Peter says for obedience, not because of obedience. He wishes all to understand that God appointed the elect for obedience just as he appointed Jesus as Redeemer. The intent is to emphasize our security in Christ. Any other interpretation fails to explain the use of the same word in the context, and would create an absurdity with regard to Christ."
I agree with this in part. I do think that predestination is "for" things". Christians were predestined to be obedient. I just don't think that means we're all personally forced into it. I also don't think we're saved because we're obedient. We're saved by faith, obedience is just a fruit of a changed life.
So only a few are forced into it? Remember that the context is salvation. The reformed view is not that people are forced in, but that they are given a new heart that loves God. Natural man would never choose God.
