The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 10 Dec, 2012 02:04 AM
What Controversies have been engendered by this subject in the past! But what truth of Holy Scripture is there which has not been the occasion of theological and ecclesiastical battles? The deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His atoning death, His second advent; the believer�s justification, sanctification, security; the church, its organization, officers, discipline; baptism, the Lord�s Supper, and a score of other precious truths might be mentioned. Yet, the controversies which have been waged over them did not close the mouths of God�s faithful servants. Why, then, should we avoid the vexing question of God�s foreknowledge, because some will charge us with fomenting strife? Let others contend if they will, our duty is to bear witness according to the light given us.
There are two things concerning the foreknowledge of God about which many are in ignorance: the meaning of the term, and its Scriptural scope. Because this ignorance is so widespread, it is easy for preachers and teachers to palm off perversions of this subject, even upon the people of God. There is only one safeguard against error, that is to be established in the faith. For that there has to be prayerful, diligent study, and a receiving with meekness the engrafted Word of God. Only then are we fortified against the attacks of those who assail us. There are those who misuse this very truth to discredit and deny the absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners. Just as higher critics repudiate the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and evolutionists, the work of God in creation, so some pseudo Bible teachers pervert His foreknowledge to set aside His unconditional election unto eternal life.
When the blessed subject of divine foreordination is expounded, when God�s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the enemy sends along someone to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God. This foreknowledge is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones who would be more pliable than others and they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit. So, because God knew they would believe, He predestinated them unto salvation. But such logic is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature.
It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners who would believe in Christ, and because of this He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48); therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God�s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation. However, God�s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ the effect.
Before we proceed further with this much misunderstood theme, let us define our terms. What is meant by "foreknowledge"? "To know beforehand" is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump to conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster�s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What we need is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit�s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. Failure to apply this simple rule is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the significance of a certain word used in Scripture, then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions with a concordance. Let us amplify.
Take the word "flesh." Its meaning appears so obvious that many would regard it as a waste of time to look up its various connections in Scripture. It is hastily assumed that the word is synonymous with the physical body, so no inquiry is made. But, in fact, flesh in Scripture frequently includes far more than what is corporeal; all that is embraced by the term can only be ascertained by a diligent comparison of every occurrence of it and by a study of each separate context.
Take the word "world." The average Bible reader imagines this word is the equivalent for the human race, and consequently, many passages where the term is found are wrongly interpreted. Take the word "immortality." Surely it requires no study! Obviously it has reference to the indestructibility of the soul. Ah, but it is wrong to assume anything where the Word of God is concerned. If the reader will take the trouble to carefully examine each passage where "mortal" and "immortal" are found, it will be seen these words are never applied to the soul, but always to the body.
Now what has just been said on "flesh," the "world," "immortality," applies with equal force to the terms "know" and "foreknow." Instead of imagining that these words signify no more than a simple cognition, carefully weigh the different passages in which they occur. The word "foreknowledge" is not found in the Old Testament. But "know" occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favor, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. "I know thee by name" (Ex. 33:17). "Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you" (Deut. 9:24). "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jer. 1:5). "They have made princes, and I knew not" (Hosea 8:4). "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). In these passages "knew" signifies either "loved" or "appointed."
In like manner, the word "know" is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old. "Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23). "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine" (John 10:14). "If any man love God, the same is known of him" (1 Cor. 8:3). "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim. 2:19).
Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If you carefully study every passage in which it occurs, you will discover that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events yet to take place. The fact is that foreknowledge is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always refers to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. To prove this we will quote each passage where this expression is found.
The first occurs in Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." Careful attention to the wording of this verse shows that the apostle was not speaking of God�s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by."
The second is Romans 8:29-30: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called." Weigh well the pronoun used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts, but the persons themselves, which is in view.
"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.
The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father?" The previous verse tells us the reference is to the "strangers scattered," i.e., the diaspora, the dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone to say God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, i.e., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God�s foreknowledge. The word uniformly refers to God�s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).
Another thing we want to call particular attention to is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God�s foreknowledge is not causative, that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it�something that is His own sovereign decree. Christ was "delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). His counsel or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word "for," which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, "all things work together for good to them . . . who are the called according to His purpose." Thus God�s "foreknowledge" is based upon His "purpose" or decree (see Psalm 2:7).
God foreknows what will be because He has decreed it. It is therefore a reverse order of Scripture, putting the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He foreknows because He has elected. This removes the cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God�s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own pleasure.
Why He chose the ones He did, we do not know. We can only say, "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight." The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: "Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His son." God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were conformed. On the contrary, those whom He foreknew (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated "to be conformed." Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God�s foreknowledge and predestination.
God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever believes until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God�s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God�s gift (Eph. 2:8-9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act. In that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies (Eph. 2:9).
Surely God�s Word is plain enough in teaching that believing is not a meritorious act. It affirms that Christians are a people "which had believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If, then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about believing; if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them. No! God�s choice proceeds not from anything in us, or anything from us, but solely from His own sovereign pleasure. Once more, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace" (Rom. 11:5). There it is, plain enough; election itself is of grace, and grace is unmerited favor, something for which we had no claim upon God whatsoever.
It is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the foreknowledge of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but also He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God�s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader is a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4); and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but simply because it pleased Him to choose; chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 11 Dec, 2012 02:34 AM
This is the point I've been trying to get across. Pink does it much better than me. It doesn't get much more plain than this. Foreknowledge simply does not mean, God looked ahead and saw faith in some people. That just doesn't fit. This much is clear from scripture and those who willfully disagree, do so at their own peril.
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 11 Dec, 2012 11:01 AM
:bouncy:Then I suppose Israel is God's greatest failure. Chosen, called, predestined, promised, and yet then cut off. I would say it's because their sin and unbelief separated them from God to the point that they couldn't recognize him in his own son, I'd like to hear how you explain it.
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Romans 11
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Also this, GUD:
"God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever believes until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God�s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God�s gift (Eph. 2:8-9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act. In that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies (Eph. 2:9)."
Romans 8
24For we are saved by *hope*(faith, 2 Cor 5:7): but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
:bouncy:I thought this was interesting, since it is similar to our other conversation, and that Mr Pink interprets Eph 2 incorrectly, and that somehow faith becomes a meritorious act in his article with no scriptural evidence to support it. He just says "it is", when the bible very often says it's the opposite. And also I think Pink is incorrect. No man would believe unless God brought him to a knowledge of the truth. Every man has a measure of faith, and he calls all men everywhere to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 3:28-30
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Phil 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
:bouncy:But it does say he foreknew before he predestined. So what did he foreknow? There must have been something that he "foreknew". That we're all sinners? Of course. That none of us seek after him? Yep. Did God foreknow that the people of Nineveh would repent? Were they predestined to be a vessel fitted for destruction? If predestination is what Mr Pink says it is, then there's some explaining to do there as well. Does God say he's going to do something and then not do it? Even Jonah was upset with God.
Jeremiah 18
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 11 Dec, 2012 11:34 AM
I just wanted to add though, I don't really think predestination and foreknowledge are directly linked to salvation so much as they are to our calling and purpose *after* salvation. Ex. God foreknew and predestined Christians to become like his son.
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 12 Dec, 2012 02:22 PM
For me to ignore something implies it would be on purpose, but I didn't think I was ignoring anything. I'm not sure why/how you would/can say that I was, but either way, it was not my intention to ignore anything. What did I ignore? Could it be that I missed something instead of ignoring it?
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 12 Dec, 2012 08:49 PM
Actually yes you have ignored the overwhelming verses given in the past and post interesting thoughts about how you don't think things are related to salvation and what not even though the context makes it clear that it is salvation. Regardless, there are plenty of other scriptures showing it's God's choice. Yes you do ignore them.
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 13 Dec, 2012 08:59 AM
"Actually yes you have ignored the overwhelming verses given in the past and post interesting thoughts about how you don't think things are related to salvation and what not even though the context makes it clear that it is salvation. Regardless, there are plenty of other scriptures showing it's God's choice. Yes you do ignore them."
Well then I'm sure glad you know what I do, because I had no idea! We could very easily get into a finger pointing game, but I'd rather not. I try to answer all the verses presented. Please excuse me if I do not.
Also, the exact quote is "I don't really think predestination and foreknowledge are directly linked to salvation so much as they are to our calling and purpose *after* salvation."
And not "predestination is never linked to salvation".
Meaning, every place where it talks about God ordaining or appointing or predestining is not always talking about our salvation. So every verse you might use to support your view of "predestination" is not always applicable in context. Some do, yes. I didn't say none of them do. I'm sensing a little annoyance starting to kick in, if that's where this is leading us, maybe we should take a break or something. If it takes you 10 years to patiently convince me of my error, wouldn't it be worth it?
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 13 Dec, 2012 09:05 AM
It's not really up for debate whether you ignore most of the evidence presented against your or not. You ignore and reply with mostly irrelevant verses. T
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 13 Dec, 2012 09:29 AM
The problem with your view of predestination is not that it's necessarily wrong that it's stating God predestined people to become conformed to the image of Christ, but that you ignore the larger picture and context.
God chooses....
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
The context is clear and it is plenty of other places as well. You would like to focus specifically on the fact that when predestination is used in the verse it doesn't say predestined to salvation so you assume it's works. You completely ignored that God saves all of those He calls and that He does so according to His purpose. You completely ignore that "predestined" is also tied to "in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers". Does this not refer to salvation?
You ignore that this reading ties in perfectly with Ephesians 1....4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
"EVEN AS HE CHOSE US IN HIS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD....HE PREDESTINED US TO ADOPTION AS SONS.....ACCORDING TO HIS WILL" ....It just doesn't get more clear than that. If you sense I am frustrated it's because you willfully ignore these things or explain them away because you want to be right, not because you want to be correct. To say that you try to answer every verse is just not true. Now, a case could be made that I ignore many of the verses you post and that's true. Most of them are off topic or contain like one word that you think makes your point. The problem is you think somehow posting these other verses just negates the other verses you don't have an answer for. I'm frustrated because you claim to be giving us the plain reading of scripture without adding or changing things...while blaming us for changing the word...which is just not at all the case. I'm giving you straightforward verses. When people post John 3:16 as a defense against particular redemption...they cry out that I'm changing it when I say that it only teaches Jesus died to save those that believe. In reality John 3:16 never says that Jesus died to saved everyone. It gets old arguing the same points. Would it be worth 10 years? Maybe if I felt someone was sincere. However I don't believe God wants it to take 10 years for people who are already believers to be slowly brought to the truth of how God saves. The gospel should be so basic to be a believers life. It is the very source of the believer's life. Those who oppose it do so because they want to believe God does not pick specific people. Their view is not grounded in scripture.
The Attributes of God~~~~~The Foreknowledge of God
Posted : 13 Dec, 2012 12:26 PM
"EVEN AS HE CHOSE US IN HIS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD....HE PREDESTINED US TO ADOPTION AS SONS.....ACCORDING TO HIS WILL" ....It just doesn't get more clear than that. If you sense I am frustrated it's because you willfully ignore these things or explain them away because you want to be right, not because you want to be correct. To say that you try to answer every verse is just not true. Now, a case could be made that I ignore many of the verses you post and that's true. Most of them are off topic or contain like one word that you think makes your point. The problem is you think somehow posting these other verses just negates the other verses you don't have an answer for. I'm frustrated because you claim to be giving us the plain reading of scripture without adding or changing things...while blaming us for changing the word...which is just not at all the case. I'm giving you straightforward verses. When people post John 3:16 as a defense against particular redemption...they cry out that I'm changing it when I say that it only teaches Jesus died to save those that believe. In reality John 3:16 never says that Jesus died to saved everyone. It gets old arguing the same points. Would it be worth 10 years? Maybe if I felt someone was sincere. However I don't believe God wants it to take 10 years for people who are already believers to be slowly brought to the truth of how God saves. The gospel should be so basic to be a believers life. It is the very source of the believer's life. Those who oppose it do so because they want to believe God does not pick specific people. Their view is not grounded in scripture."
Again sir, I never said ALL of them do not concern salvation. I didn't even say which ones I didn't think were concerning salvation, so it's not fair to tell me which ones I do and do not. I did not claim I understand anything better or clearer than anyone, only that I personally do not see your views in their entirety in scripture. I actually do agree with most of your surface concepts, I just don't see the mechanics that get you there or the need for them.
Ex: "God predestines those who are saved" Me: Yes! Ex: "By forcing them to have life and then to have faith" Me: "Where? Why?"
Before this goes any farther, I'd think it would be good if you read everything you just wrote to me like someone was writing it to you, because I could say every single thing that you said and have it carry just as much weight in my own mind. If I'm willfully ignorant, but so convinced in my own mind that I'm being reasonable, then it has to be possible for you to be the same way. Or if you can't think that way, then why not? What assurance do you have that your way of interpreting/thinking is so much better? Because you read the bible? Me too. Because you and a lot of other people think the same way? I have that behind me as well, including the people closest in line to the apostles, and before paganism was introduced into the church. Because you have bible verses? Me too, and I showed you many more than John 3:16(and don't forget, you "cry out" that I'm reinterpreting the bible out of context as well). Because you feel like God has led you to the truth? Me too. Because you think I ignore things? Maybe you are as well. I would just much prefer if we can reason together as brothers from the same fold. I'm not trying to be right, neither am I trying to convince you into my beliefs. If you insist that you can tell whether or not I'm sincere, or if I'm willingly ignorant, then on top of a few other things, I have to ask you what your feelings have to do with anything, especially your duty as a christian. Only God knows the heart. If you would look at it as just a conversation, instead of insisting that I'm wrong, and you're right, then we can have a friendly and reasonable discussion, but I'm afraid you're always going to be annoyed with me if you continue to maintain that I'm just being obstinate, even when I say I'm not. It might be better to lean toward hoping for the best and preparing for the worst instead of just assuming the worst. Think of it this way if no other way: How easily would you abandon your beliefs that you have studied out and feel that God has led you to them and saved you through them? Just because some people on a forum said they're wrong? I sure hope not, and I would never expect you to. Whether the specifics of my beliefs are correct or not, I believe I am a christian, and I believe in and follow all the essentials the bible teaches. And I do believe God picks specific people. Those that believe in His son, those that have faith, those that "look" and live. It's just the mechanics we disagree on as far as I can tell.
"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
