It's a gift. But why don't some people get it no matter how many thousand times they asked for it??? Is it biblically right to teach someone how to speak in tongues? Thanks.
Well, that all depends on the definition of glory. What is God's "glory". Why is He "glorious"? Why does he do things for his glory, or for his "name's sake"? I think we have to be careful about putting our dictionary definitions onto what God is saying sometimes, and I think it's easy to miss that the problem of sin goes beyond this planet, and that there is a war going on over the question of whose government is better, God's or Satan's? Satan was able to deceive 1/3 of the angels to actually follow him in open war against God, and that leads me to believe that an accusation was leveled against God's character and his kingdom by Satan, one that was convincing enough to pervert holy angels to rebellion. That's why I think Jesus said "It is finished" when He died on the cross, the love/character of God was displayed on the cross in Jesus for the universe to see that God is who He says He is. He is righteous and sinless and loving and merciful, and to me, that is what gives God His "glory". So when He says He's doing something for "His Glory", personally, I take it to mean that He's doing something which is evidence/vindication of His character, against the accusations of Satan. Besides, God creating something that can disobey and rebel against him, and steal his most loyal servants, and pervert his creation, and destroy his children, does not sound like something a god would do to give himself adoration, and praise, and our human definition of glory. There is much that is happening that does not give God "glory". Wide is the road that leads to destruction, and many go that way, far more than those who choose God, which is against God's own desire. God doesn't want any to perish.
Here are some verses that show me that the "glory" of God is what changes us into His image, and that glory is seen in the face of Jesus, who came as a living revelation of what God is like. When Israel was in the wilderness, God had Moses create a serpent on a pole(Jesus on the Cross) for the bitten(sinful) israelites to look at and be "healed"(changed), which is an object lesson that pointed to Jesus. It is quite literally the belief in the sacrifice of love by God, and by/thru Jesus, that brings us salvation and changes us. I'd say that would be the dictionary definition of what God means when He's talking about doing things that bring Him "glory", simply whatever He does that shows what He's really like. I can't imagine Jesus creating things just for himself to enjoy or simply to bring himself what we think of as "glory", He would have created robots that could not disobey Him if selfishness was His motivation in making things.
2 Cor. 3:18
"But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
2 Cor. 4:6
"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
:ROFL: Not sure how that happened, but maybe it could be applied to this question too?? No?? *sigh*, ok...
As far as tongues go, it's only one of many gifts, and we don't all get the same ones. Paul kind of implies that tongues are one of the least important, and I think we might get a little confused about what the gift actually is. I'd say the apostles were speaking in tongues in Acts, when they spoke and everyone heard the disciples in their own language. When I see people babbling nonsense on TV and they say they spoke in tongues, I get a little skeptical. Also, the apostles were alive during the time of the early rain, I'm not sure the Holy Spirit will be filling Christians like that again until the latter rain, perhaps some, but having the gift of tongues is not a requirement for being a christian like some denominations teach. You might have the gift of discernment instead, or of prophecy, etc.
I wonder how one might be 'taught' (by men at least) to speak in tongues? You've either genuinely got the gift in which case you're most likely using it as prescribed for the edification of the church, or you think you've got it. Years back I went to AoG church who were very big on speaking in tongues, "falling in the Spirit", "xyz in the Spirit" (basically whatever happened to be spiritually fashionable at that time). Sadly I think it was more about effect and to be praised by men because the Spirit very clearly told me not to get involved in it - much to the annoyance of the leadership.
(1) I hope you will have a chance to read what is said in the message marked in red font below.
I want to tell you that I completely agree with the author of this message
cuz i didnt meet any prophets in our churches...
what I have met is deception and lie. God is going to judge these
false prophets who say desires of their hearts on behalf of God.
So, I do not believe that the Spirit of God gives today gifts of prophecies
and tongues as He gave them in the early Church.
Moreover there is no need for such prophecies today.
I will explain you what I think.
My point is:
1. Everything is said. There is no need for any new prophecies.
What is new it is not true. There is nothing new in the Bible.
If you need a prophecy, open the Bible and you will see how God talks to
you THROUGH the words of the Bible uttered by Him and written in the Bible already.
2. God does not talk to people DIRECTLY and in audible voice today as to Moses or Isaiah or Daniel..or other prophets.
Why? God talked to Moses and prophets DIRECTLY, after this communication with God, the prophets went to Israel and communicated/gave them
what God said.
So, today God told us everything. There is no need for any NEW prophecies to be uttered by average christians or even pastors.
3. If a christian claims that God talked to him directly and said something then any claim of such christian
on behalf of God will be judged by Him. You know that already. Moreover, our madhouses are full of patients who claim that they constantly talk to 'god' or hear voices
in head.
Do you remember how God warns that any false prophet will be punished by death in the Lake of Fire because they say what God didnt say and
they share their desires/dreams what God didnt utter (Jeremiah). I will you some references:
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.
Jeremiah 23
The Branch of Righteousness
23 �Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!� says the Lord. 2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: �You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings,� says the Lord. 3 �But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,� says the Lord.
5 �Behold, the days are coming,� says the Lord,
�That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 �Therefore, behold, the days are coming,� says the Lord, �that they shall no longer say, �As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,� 8 but, �As the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.� And they shall dwell in their own land.�
False Prophets and Empty Oracles
9 My heart within me is broken
Because of the prophets;
All my bones shake.
I am like a drunken man,
And like a man whom wine has overcome,
Because of the Lord,
And because of His holy words.
10 For the land is full of adulterers;
For because of a curse the land mourns.
The pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up.
Their course of life is evil,
And their might is not right.
11 �For both prophet and priest are profane;
Yes, in My house I have found their wickedness,� says the Lord.
12 �Therefore their way shall be to them
Like slippery ways;
In the darkness they shall be driven on
And fall in them;
For I will bring disaster on them,
The year of their punishment,� says the Lord.
13 �And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria:
They prophesied by Baal
And caused My people Israel to err.
14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem:
They commit adultery and walk in lies;
They also strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one turns back from his wickedness.
All of them are like Sodom to Me,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.
15 �Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:
�Behold, I will feed them with wormwood,
And make them drink the water of gall;
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Profaneness has gone out into all the land.��
16 Thus says the Lord of hosts:
�Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.
They make you worthless;
They speak a vision of their own heart,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
17 They continually say to those who despise Me,
�The Lord has said, �You shall have peace��;
And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say,
�No evil shall come upon you.��
18 For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord,
And has perceived and heard His word?
Who has marked His word and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury�
A violent whirlwind!
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart.
In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
21 �I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran.
I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in My counsel,
And had caused My people to hear My words,
Then they would have turned them from their evil way
And from the evil of their doings.
23 �Am I a God near at hand,� says the Lord,
�And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?� says the Lord;
�Do I not fill heaven and earth?� says the Lord.
25 �I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, �I have dreamed, I have dreamed!� 26 How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart, 27 who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
28 �The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream;
And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully.
What is the chaff to the wheat?� says the Lord.
29 �Is not My word like a fire?� says the Lord,
�And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
30 �Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,� says the Lord, �who steal My words every one from his neighbor. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets,� says the Lord, �who use their tongues and say, �He says.� 32 Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,� says the Lord, �and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,� says the Lord.
33 �So when these people or the prophet or the priest ask you, saying, �What is the oracle of the Lord?� you shall then say to them, �What oracle?� I will even forsake you,� says the Lord. 34 �And as for the prophet and the priest and the people who say, �The oracle of the Lord!� I will even punish that man and his house. 35 Thus every one of you shall say to his neighbor, and every one to his brother, �What has the Lord answered?� and, �What has the Lord spoken?� 36 And the oracle of the Lord you shall mention no more. For every man�s word will be his oracle, for you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. 37 Thus you shall say to the prophet, �What has the Lord answered you?� and, �What has the Lord spoken?� 38 But since you say, �The oracle of the Lord!� therefore thus says the Lord: �Because you say this word, �The oracle of the Lord!� and I have sent to you, saying, �Do not say, �The oracle of the Lord!�� 39 therefore behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you and forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and will cast you out of My presence. 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.��
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Our churches today are full of people who claim that God talks to them directly.
I do not believe in that. God can talk to Muslims directly in dreams and visions to convert them but not in reality.
Also, I believe that God gave revelations to prophets in the early christian church.
Why?
To build them up. I.e. to build the Church in the beginning! And there is no need today for any 'new' prophecies.
The same way, I believe that God gave many gifts (about 12) and one of them
is speaking in tongues. Why? To build up the early Church and guide them.
Today I think there is no need for speaking in tongues. Why? read about it below too.
Moreover, I have NEVER heard that somebody would speak today in tongues.
What I have heard is deception and barking...no clear LANGUAGE!!!
Read this message below I completely agree with:
Why I Don't Believe in 'Speaking in Tongues'.........
Posted : 1 Nov, 2011 03:36 PM
by: Dave Stevens
There was a time when I thought I spoke in tongues and saw visions of Jesus speaking to me. So, it is not as if I have a bias against the charismatic gifts. I use to think my special "baptism" of gifts offered me a deeper experience with God. I came home from college asking my church and believing family why they ignored the teachings on the Holy Spirit. I use to think that the gifts were the demonstration of the power of God.
I still believe in miracles and supernatural answers to prayer. However, I have come to realize that the Holy Spirit almost always works with and through the Word of God. In contrast to those who would deny the power of the Holy Spirit, I affirm that the greatest demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit is in the sovereign regeneration of lost souls, whereby God turns an unbelieving God hater into a believer.
I also want to set strait those who would accuse me of denying the fact that God directs us. I believe that God leads and directs His elect by giving them desires that conform to His revealed will (the Bible). In fact, God �works all things according to the counsel of His will� (Eph 1:11). Romans 8:28 says, "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." The opposite is also true of the reprobate. He works all things out for the bad to those who do not love God. For example, Prov. 16:4 states that "The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." Romans 9:17 says of Pharaoh, �For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.'�
So, it would be perfectly appropriate to say, �I feel that God is leading me to do such and such�, which is another way of saying, �I think God is giving me the desire to do such and such�. If that desire conforms to God�s revealed will, we should recognize it as the gracious work of God in our hearts to conform us to the image of His Son. However, it is completely different to say, �God told me such and such� The former statement acknowledges God�s providence in leading us by means of our desires and circumstances. The later statement invokes the authority of God by speaking on His behalf. There is a big difference. In our modern experiential culture, professing Christians have become very comfortable with speaking on God�s behalf. This shows that they have little respect for His inspired word and no fear of misrepresenting Him. Few people take to heart the warning found in Deut. 18:20, "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die."
Cessationism teaches that the revelatory gifts (tongues and prophecy) have ceased to be given to the church by the Holy Spirit after the completion of the New Testament canon. The following is a list of reasons why I have become a cessationist.
Reason 1 - The Scriptures Are Sufficient For Every Good Work
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." This passage explains that the scriptures are sufficient for our sanctification. It doesn't say that the scriptures equip us for some works, but we need the gifts of tongues or prophecy to really experience super spirituality. It says that the scriptures are sufficient to equip us for every good work.
Reason 2 - The Scriptures Are Sufficient For Salvation
The scriptures are also sufficient for saving souls. Romans 1:16 says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." Those who would promote so called "power evangelism" argue that the gifts are important evangelistic tools. They would argue that miracles and demonstrations of the power of God would cause someone to believe in the gospel. In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, told by Jesus in Luke 16, the rich man in hell begs Abraham to send Lazarus "to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment" (vs. 27b-28). Abraham then says "They have Moses and the prophets". The rich man argued the same argument as "power evangelists" do today. "No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent" (vs. 30). Abraham's reply is this, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." So miracles do nothing to save the lost. God must first perform a sovereign work of regeneration before someone can believe.
The children of Israel witnessed many many miracles. They witnessed the 10 plagues in Egypt. They saw the parting of the Red Sea. They were guided by the pillar of fire at night and the pillar of cloud during the day. They were fed manna (a picture of Christ) for food. The drank from the rock (a picture of Christ) in the dessert. They heard God's very voice on Mt. Sinai. But, was this enough to give them faith? No, Hebrews says that they all died in the wilderness (except the families of Moses, Aaron, and Caleb) because of unbelief.
For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. - Hebrews 3:16-19
What did those miracles accomplish for those who died in the wilderness? They served as greater judgement for them in hell. But to God's elect they serve as a witness of God's power and deliverance in salvation.
God has not chosen the gifts of tongues and prophecy as His means of producing faith in unbelievers. Instead, "it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." (1 Cor. 1:21).
Reason 3 - The Scriptures Are Complete
Hebrews 1:1-2 says the following:
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
The Greek word elalesen (spoken) is an aorist tense verb. The aorist tense indicates an action that has been completed in the past. Is God still speaking to us today through new revelation (tongues and prophecy)? No, because God has already spoken through His Son. His revelation is complete. But when did God speak by His Son? The answer can be found in John.
"These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. - John 14:25-26
�I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. - John 16:12-15
From these passages we see that the Apostles are not given anything apart from Jesus. Jesus was the true prophet. He had a set doctrine or teaching that he wanted to pass on to the disciples. However, the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember the things that Jesus taught. Even Paul was directly taught by the risen Jesus Christ (see Gal. 1:12 & 1 Cor. 11:23). Jesus is very clear in this passage that the Holy Spirit will speak only the things He hears from the Son (see "He will take of Mine and declare it to you" in vs 15). That is why the early church needed the gift of prophecy and tongues while the canon (list of books considered scripture) was being completed by the disciples. Theses gifts (as well as miracles) also authenticated the message being delivered.
The canon of scripture was eventually finished by John with the following warning in Revelations.
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Rev. 22:18-19
When John wrote Revelation, he was aware of the fact that he was the only surviving eye witness and apostle. Therefore, this warning can be understood in a much broader sense than just the book of Revelation.
I have yet to find a new translation of the Bible that contains new revelation from a modern day tongues and prophecy. But why not? If a new tongue or prophecy is from God, then it should be recognized as the very words of God and added to the back of every Bible. Why should there be any distinction? If God has really spoken through a modern day prophet, then His words today should cary the same authority as His words spoken long ago. Many who argue that tongues and prophecy are for today would balk at such an idea. They know that their modern day tongue or prophecy do not have the same authority as scripture. But they fail to explain why.
Reason 4 - Our Hearts Are Deceitful Above All Things
Jeremiah 17:9 says the following about our hearts
�The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
Yet so many charismatics blindly follow inclinations and feelings in their heart that they think are from God. I once did this myself. My heart was deceiving myself into thinking that I was receiving revelation from God, when that revelation actually was coming from my own imagination and vanity. I was so deceived, that I actually thought that by making strange nonsensical noises, I was able to speak in an "angelic language". Jeremiah 23:25-26 explains that false prophecy comes from the deceit of our own hearts.
"I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, �I have dreamed, I have dreamed!� How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart," - Jer. 23:25-26
"Is not My word like a fire?� says the LORD, And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?" - Jer. 23:29
How do we know if a tongue or prophecy is from God? After all, it could be our imagination, or a hallucination. Charismatics usually have two answers for this.
They quote 1 John 4:1 out of context, which says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God." The charismatic would interpret this passage by saying that we are to ask the spirit (the voice in our head) whether Jesus came in the flesh. But this is not what John is asking us to do. He is telling the church to test those who claim to be prophets by examining their doctrine. That is why John warns them that "many false prophets have gone out into the world".
Secondly, those who believe that tongues and prophecy are for today usually say that a tongue or prophecy can be validated by comparing it with scripture. But if every prophecy must be compared with scripture, then why do we need the new tongue or prophecy?
Reason 5 - We Are To Focus on God's Revealed Will
Many would argue that tongues and prophecy help us to understand God's secret plan for our lives. In this way, it is said that we can "get in on what God is going". Should we be focused on God's secret will? Actually, the Bible tells us the opposite.
�The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. - Deut. 29:29
Instead of worrying about missing out on God's plan, we should trust that God is sovereign enough to direct us by orchestrating events according to His providence. This is tremendously freeing because we no longer need to worry about looking for signs of God's secret will (which is superstition). Believers never miss out on something "better" because "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28). This frees us to focus on obeying His revealed will (i.e. ten commandments). God will take care of the rest. Jesus says "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). He doesn't tell us to focus on new revelation. Instead, we are to focus our attention and energies on what He has revealed, "My commandments".
We are also told several times in the scriptures not to "interpret omens" (see Lev. 19:26 Deut. 18:10). However, this is exactly what Charismatics do when they interpret current events as signs from God.
Reason 6 - The Imperatives in 1 Corinthians 12:31 and 14:1 Are Mistranslations
Some would quote the following verses to show that we should "earnestly desire the best gifts" (prophecy, tongues, etc).
"But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way." - 1 Cor. 12:31
"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy." - 1 Cor. 14:1
The Greek word for "earnestly desire" in vs 12:31 and "desire" in vs. 14:1 is zhlouvte (zaloute), which is a second person plural present active verb. The question at hand is whether this verb is in the imperative (a command) or indicative (a statement of fact) mood. The Greek verb ending -te is the verb ending for both imperative and indicative. In fact, Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida's Greek-English Lexicon even states that "It is also possible to understand zhlouvte in 1Cor 12:31 as being indicative and therefore translated as �you set your hearts on the more important gifts.�"
So, we need to look at the context to tell us if this verb is in the imperative or indicative mood. I would argue that the indicative mood makes much more sense with the subversive "yet I show you a more excellent way". In other words, Paul was stating the fact that they were zealously desiring the best gifts, which was causing divisions (chap. 12). Instead of desiring tongues and prophecy, they should have been desiring love, which in Paul's terms was "a more excellent way" (chap. 13).
The same is the case for 14:1. He tells them to pursue (diw�kete - follow with haste) love. This verb should be translated as an imperative because of the context of chapter 13. Then the next verb "desire" (zhlouvte) should be translated indicative (statement of fact). Why? Because of the context of verse 14:12, which is a summary of 14:1-11.
"Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel." - 1 Cor. 14:12
Paul is stating that "since" they were zealous for spiritual gifts (indicative again), their overall concern should be for the edification of the church. There are no commands in scripture to seek spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are sovereignly given by the Holy Spirit and are not given to everyone in the same way (1 Cor. 12:30). That is why they are called gifts.
Reason 7 - The Scriptures Tell Us That The Revelatory Gifts Have Ceased
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:8-13
It is clear from this passage that tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge will cease. The main issue is when they will cease. It is interesting to note that these three gifts are specifically called out as being temporary, in contrast to faith, hope and love. Why? I believe it is because they are revelatory.
Verse 10 tells us exactly when these gifts will cease, namely "when that which is perfect has come". The Greek word telios (perfect) means "brought to its end, finished; lacking nothing necessary to completeness; perfect" according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and "having reached its end, finished, complete" according to the Liddell & Scott Greek lexicon. In other words, when the finishing of something has come, these gifts will cease. Here are some common interpretations of the word "perfect" (telios) in 1 Cor. 13:10.
maturity attained in our glorified state. This mixes metaphors (explained below).
the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. However, Christ is never described in the neuter gender. This also mixes metaphors (explained below).
the completion of the canon.
I believe the 3rd interpretation is correct for the following reasons. Firstly, this interpretation better explains how prophecy, tongues and words of new knowledge are incomplete (see "For we know in part and we prophecy in part" in verse 9). They are incomplete because, at that period in history, God had not completed them. Secondly, the third interpretation fits perfectly with the two metaphors that Paul uses to explain how the church's knowledge will become complete. The two metaphors that Paul uses to explain the contrast between knowing or prophesying in part and complete knowledge are as follows:
knowledge of a child vs. knowledge of a man
seeing through a dim mirror vs. seeing face to face
It can not be emphasized enough that these metaphors must be taken as metaphors. The first mistake people make in this passage is to interpret the "face to face" as the 2nd coming of Christ. But this would be mixing the metaphor ("seeing in a mirror") with something real (seeing Jesus Christ at His 2nd coming). Paul would never mix a metaphor with reality. If the first part is metaphorical (seeing in a mirror) so must the 2nd part (seeing in face to face). So, Paul is telling us that the completion of the canon will be like looking at someone face to face, compared to looking through the dim reflection of a 1st century mirror.
Conclusion
This paper was intended to make a concise biblical defense of Cessationism (the teaching that the revelatory gifts have ceased). The bible teaches us that the scriptures are sufficient for both our salvation and sanctification. The apostle John has completed the revelation of Jesus Christ by finishing the book of Revelation. The scriptures are trustworthy, while our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Therefore, instead of focusing on superstitious premonitions, we should focus our energy on obeying God's commandments as they are revealed in the scriptures. We can ignore those who say that God commands us to "earnestly desire the greater gifts" because these passages are not imperatives. And lastly, we should not seek to exercise the revelatory gifts, when the scriptures teach us that these gifts have ceased. I hope this paper has helped the reader understand that only God's Holy Word has the authority to bind man's conscience. May God use this to free those who are bound by superstition, error, and the doctrine of demons.
So, may be you have seen how the false prophets prophetize in our churches.....But we should stop their madness...if there is a madness.
There is a Forum on this website "Christian dating for free" and we discussed some of tongue issues and prophecies...
Below I will show you what I said...read it...It is interesting...
I do not believe that the Spirit of God gives today tongues and prophecy gifts as he did it in the first christian churches....Why?
Because until today I have not heard anyone who is speaking in tongues...What I heard is barking and madness which could not be called
by the word tongue.
bahira
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Why I Don't Believe in 'Speaking in Tongues'...Continued ~
Posted : 4 Nov, 2011 05:38 AM
Lady,
you didnt get what we have discussed here.
You are talking about healing by the laying on of hands.
I prayed about a Muslim man laying on him my hands and God healed him.
There are many manifestations of the Holy Spirit who dwells in believers in the God Jesus.
That's why He gives us many gifts.
So many gifts that I even cannt count then here right now.
The tongues is just one of the them!!!!!
Re-red the Scripture to see it.
We all agree that it is possible that people speak today in the tongues. But we have not met such people yet. What we see in our Churches is just crazy barking. And this barking cannt be the language of the Holy Spirit. Check thread I posted for you a link where you can see such barking.
So, what I say: those who bark will be judged by God. Because they allowed themselves to be deceived by other 'christians' and they deceive other people. God does not bark because the Holy Spirit is not dog!!!!
God will start the judgment from the House of God.
One of my friends was among them for many years and even until today he cannt get free from madness which he saw there and did with them!!!
Do you want to see what demons make in the so-called christian churches?
Bahira it is best you do not speak of things you know not of.
bahira
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 07:56 AM
I am called by my God to speak about such madness in the churches to show them what demons do among them and reasons why they all will get to the lake of Fire after their Judgment!
bahira
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 08:02 AM
There will be a great FALLING AWAY {THE GREAT APOSTASY} at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
And we are able to see it in so-called christian churches and among fake-christians/so-called-christians/ self-born christians!
God does not call us to be unreasonable and mad! The christian faith is reasonable. There is NO madness in our God and there should be no madness in His sons!
Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 08:13 AM
Hello Bahira your about to get mad.
bahira
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 08:33 AM
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy . . . having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
� 2 Timothy 3:1�2, 5
An oxymoron basically is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms, like "jumbo shrimp," "virtual reality," "friendly fire," and "found missing." Then there is one of my favorites: "fresh frozen." You might go into a restaurant and ask, "Is this fish fresh?"
"It is fresh frozen," the server will say.
"Well, is it fresh?" you will ask again.
"It is fresh frozen." Why don't they just tell you that it is old?
Then there are other classic oxymorons, like "exact estimate" and "airline food." We can add "genuine imitation" to that list as well.
The idea of genuine imitation is what Jesus conveys in a story known as the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. Prior to Jesus' return, the devil effectively will flood the market with cheap imitations of the real thing. In fact, there will be so many genuine imitations that people will have a difficult time distinguishing the true from the false.
Why will the devil do this? Because it is effective. When it is revealed that a so-called Christian has been living a double life that is a complete contradiction of his or her profession of faith, some people might think, Well, that person is a hypocrite, so I am not going to be a Christian either. I am going to turn my back on this. They are all just a bunch of phonies. They fell for the devil's trap.
So according to Jesus' parable, there will be many in the last days who believe�and many who will fake belief. They will sit side by side in the same churches. They will sing the same songs. They will read the same Bibles. They will say the same things, to some degree. But in reality, these people are never really believers to begin with.
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 08:50 AM
Why do people buy into these crazy teachings? Don't they know any better? The Bible tells us that in the last days, there will literally be a cult explosion�an ever-growing plethora of every belief system possible except the right one.
The Bible tells us that Satan will:
"Use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them. So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies. Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do" (2 Thess. 2:10-12 NLT).
You know something is popular when you start seeing the knock-offs or imitations. The Devil is not very original. He has always seen the value of copying something, and, in so doing, confusing the issue. It seems that whenever there is a genuine work of the Spirit of God, Satan will have his imitation.
Consider Pharaoh's magicians, who were able to duplicate the miracles of Moses, such as the plague of blood in the Nile, and the plague of frogs (see Exodus 7-8).
Jesus told the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30). In the story, a man planted wheat in a field, but his enemy came at night and planted tares (or the darnel seed) in the same field. Initially, this tare looks just like the wheat. But as time goes by, it actually uproots the wheat and ultimately destroys it.
These days while God is working, the devil is planting his tares. When they are exposed, people say, "See�they are all hypocrites!" As Peter said, "Christ and his true way will be slandered" through this. Yet, the presence of so many imitations should actually prove that there is an Original.
Whatever we have as Christians, you can be sure that Satan has a counterfeit version:
He has a false gospel that tells you that you can make up the rules as you go.
Along with this false gospel comes a false hope. People think that because they have gone through a certain religious ritual, they are eternally secure.
He has a false messiah. Satan always wanted the top job in heaven, and he has never gotten over losing his once exalted position. In these last days, he will thrust his imitation messiah�the Antichrist� on the world scene.
Here we see Satan's unholy trinity:
Satan, imitating God (and, for a short time, having the worship of people worldwide)
The Antichrist masquerading as the Son
The false prophet impersonating the Holy Spirit
The Work of the Antichrist
The Antichrist will bring about a new religious system that will accommodate everyone. We are currently in the midst of a cult explosion. Whether it be Dianetics, EST, goddess worship, reincarnation, astrology, holistic healing, or any of a hundred consciousness raising techniques of our day�the modern age is on a search for some mystical divine unity. The times are ripe for a world religion.
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 23 Jun, 2011 09:46 AM
Brothers,
we ALL listen to the words of God (seed of God) but WE determine what kind of soil our heart will be!!!
We all need to make a real commitment to God Jesus because He is going to judge not only what we say but our motives!
That's why if our mouth will bark like these people bark in this video I provided you above with, then God will judge not only your barking but WHY did you decide to bark!
Is it a genuine imitation of God?!
A barking god is NOT God of Israel. My Father does not bark. He is teaching me to be separated from the madness of the world! I am able to see and understand what is madness and how to live correct.
Why? Because if you are born of God, you KNOW God. And God is not a barking dog! And His HOLY sons are not barking as these fake-churches do! Knowing God, we do what our God says.
Those who bark are demons-possessed. If God is livening in you, demons cannt live in you.
If those who bark in you are NOT the HOLY God of Israel, then who bark in you are demons! It is the manifestation of demons! We can clearly see it on this video!
You should GET RID of your demons TURNING your heart to God, repenting and asking Him to forgive your sins and connections with demons. Then you will be FREE.
If your god is a dog then HOW are you going to get to the Kingdom of God of Israel?!
Get out of your dogs living inside of you and be a son not of demons but the HOLY God of Israel! His sons said:
But everything should be done (in the Church) decently and in orderly way. 1 Corinthians 14:40
If you do not know what is decently then you SHOULD know it. Because God is going to judge your actions and motives. There is NO MADNESS in this God!
ETcallhome
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 24 Jun, 2011 08:05 AM
No, indeed Bahira, there is no way dogs can bark in people or any of this foolishness that you see many of these people doing, that is not scriptural or of God, everything God does has a spiritual message that leads to salvation, not entertainment or a showcase.
The point that I'm making with the passages I posted, and I think PJ, is making is saying is, that you can only pray for these people spiritually, and since you cannot reach these people physically to sit them down and teach them God's word of truth, there is nothing you can do. Therefore, if we know these things are not of God based on our knowledge of the spiritual things of God found in His holy Word, then all we can do is pray for them, and leave them alone.
There is so much foolishness that is going on that people claim to be of God, that is not of God according to His word and our knowledge, so I have learned to leave those things along that I cannot change, and change those things I can by using God's word to base my call for chance.
If its not in God's word, then I don't see how it can be of God. Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything that God wants us to know is written in His word, including those things and the works of the Holy Spirit, these works do not change, becaue od doesn't change in character.
Many people use the passage of John chapter 14:verse 20, where Jesus says, truly, truly, I say to you, the person who believes in Me, the works that I do this person will do also, and GREATER works than these shall he do, because I go to my Father. They use this passage to justify their foolishness of out of control behavior as if the Holy Spirit is doing this work in them. And to say this so-called out of control laughter and all this other mess is of the Holy Spirit. But what they don't understand is that the greater works Jesus is speaking about is much in reference to what the apostles did in quantity and that Jesus is not speaking about stuff that has no spiritual meaning or value that bring salvation. The Bible tells us that Jesus did so many miracles and signs and wonders there is no book that could hold the details of what He did or His works, so we are only given a small account of those things that He did and that God wants us to know about. But I'm sure He did not have people going around barking like a dog, or all over the place out of control in a silly manner, and still the person when they stop they are still depressed or sad or whatever. The joy of the laugh is not about out of control, but f comfort and peace in knowing...
Much hysteria goes on in the churches where false teachers and preachers have followings, that is not of God, just as in the day of the apostles, and the say its of God.
Therefore, as the passage says, if you cannot fit this by pointing these people to the right things in scripture and what God says, and correct them, then if its of man it will come to nothing. But if its of God and He is using this foolishness to somehow point to Himself for His glory, and will sooner or later make some changes by correcting all this craziness that is going on... then all we should do is denounce what we know is not of God and correct it as Paul and the apostles did during their work showing the proper and right things of God, or just leave it all alone until God Himself steps in and make changes.
For sure God is not going to allow such mess to continue in His name leading people astray, and many of these preachers of such cults are leading people astray with foolishness, and God has already stated that he is going to harshly punish these preachers who do such. So all we can do is pray and correct those who and where we can.
This is my point of the passage I posted...
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 25 Jun, 2011 12:00 AM
usually those that oppose the truth as such on the video have not received the Holy Spirit but they receive dogs spirits/demons to bark and oppose the Truth!
bahira
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Is this of GOD,Ha-Satan,or man
Posted : 25 Jun, 2011 12:23 AM
Ella, I agree with you that God will punish such people perverting the Truth in their cults and deceiving people!
There is no madness in God and those who follow God, are the HOLY and small Remnant. The majority will perish..even among christians.
Because they chose their own truth which is OPPOSITE to the God�s Truth. Such people by being Christians are unbelievers and they all flow to the hell fire by millions!
God Jesus said about them:
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 �Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
I Never Knew You
21 �Not everyone who says to Me, �Lord, Lord,� shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, �Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?� 23 And then I will declare to them, �I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!� Matthew 7
prophetic774
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Why I Don't Believe in 'Speaking in Tongues'.........
Posted : 1 Nov, 2011 05:33 PM
JUDE i AGREE WITH JAMES THAT TONGUES MUST BE SPOKEN IN ONE OF THE PRESENT FOREIGN LANGUAGES. i ALSO BELIEVE THAT TONGUES HAVE BEEN SATANICALLY MISUSED IN MOST OF THE CHARISMATIC CHURCHES. HOWEVER i BELIEVE THAT THE GREAT TRIBULATION SAINTS AND MOSES AND ELIJAH WILL SPEAK IN HUNDREDS OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES THAT THEY HAVE NOT LEARNED SINCE THE GOSPEL MUST BE BELIEVED IN ALL 6000 LANGUAGES{As per Revelation 7:9} AND GOD'S WORD HAS PRESENTLY BEEN ONLY translated in to about 2,000 languages.
Whether there are people who presently have the gift of speaking in tongues in a present foreign language I am not qualified to answer since I am not involved in the charismatic churches.
I also believe that charismatic people who claim to have a prophecy given to them by God in a dream or Revelation from Jesus are false prophets. Prophets who add or take words away from God's Prophetic Words have committed an unpardonable sin as per Revelation 22:18,19.
As you know Luther did not believe that James and Revelation were not part of God's Word and Calvin wrote an Institute on every book in the Bible except Revelation and also did not believe that Revelation was part of God's Word.
James is a member of the very Calvinistic Christian Reformed church and their preachers will never admit they don't believe that Revelation is not part of God's Word since it is now a part of all Protestant Bibles. But I have never heard a Christian Reformed preacher preach a sermon on Revelation and I went to the Christian Reformed College which is Calvin College. They will tell you that Revelation is a symbolic fairy tale that no one can really understand; although i agree with them that the dispensational pre-trib rapture fairy tale is Satanic.
_________________
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
When I was visiting my faincee's village in India I was looking to see if God would give me the gift of tongues that I might communicate with them.
Well He didnt. What He did give me was the keeness to understand the heart behind what was being communicated or the Spirit if you would.
Many times their is much more to know about a person by their facial expressions and eye contact. People hide with their words but their faces never lie.
I have the gift of Prophesy but can i controll when it will be applied, no I can not. It is a gift through the Spirit of God to be used in Gods timing.
I do not believe gifts can be fabricated and used by anyone. A gift is given, right? Now wisdom is another thing. If we ask God for wisdom then He will give liberally.
I think as singles we should be asking God always for wisdom concerning our own hearts and the opposite gender. Ask and God will give you the wisdom you need.
Thanks all :-) once I heard a lady teaching how to speak in tongues to some people and I was kinda skeptic about it. Who gives the authority to teach to speak in tongues? Where did the idea come from?
The answer is very simple, if a person is born again the spirit of truth lives with in the christian. Men are to be taught the word of God as it is written knowing this simple fact the word of God is alive and abides forever. The response's are all based on man's experience's and not the revealation of the word of God. Always man's response is to the word of God as if it is The Truth, men's interpretations are nothing more than man exalting himself above the word of God. So what does the first reference clearly say.
I am curious TC, Do you believe the Spirit resides within believers? If so do you believe the Spirit speakes truth through believers in principle but without the need to quote scripture exactly? What is wisdom? Is only scripture wisdom or does wisdom come from scripture.
The prophets of old wrote about their experiences, did they not? Are their experiences valid and those of today not?
I have found that individuals respond better to the love expressed through truth rather than just quoting bible verses to them.
I hear people condeming others for not believing truth because they throw out some scripture at others like a machine gun rapid fire. I used to be such a individual all proud and pious of myself and knowlegde and use of scripture.
What I was really doing was trying to get people to love me rather than loving people. My motives were to say look how good I am because I know scripture.
Once I realised this and repented then quoting scripture was not as important than just loving people. What is the greatest command? Quote scripture or love people?
Can you realise that quoting scripture is not loving sometimes and is not what a individual needs at the given time?
I am curious TC, Do you believe the Spirit resides within believers? If so do you believe the Spirit speakes truth through believers in principle but without the need to quote scripture exactly? What is wisdom? Is only scripture wisdom or does wisdom come from scripture.
Very intersting question for a christian to ask, Do you believe in monday?
The prophets of old wrote about their experiences, did they not? Are their experiences valid and those of today not?
The bible is inspired of God not man, you as much say experiences are all of God.
The bible answer is very simple experiences are to agree with the word of God, otherwise it is nothing but the flesh in operation.
I have found that individuals respond better to the love expressed through truth rather than just quoting bible verses to them.
You imply here there could be truth outside of scripture.
The answer to that is absolutely not.
The word of God is always love speaking and revealing the will of God.
I hear people condeming others for not believing truth because they throw out some scripture at others like a machine gun rapid fire. I used to be such a individual all proud and pious of myself and knowlegde and use of scripture.
There is no condemnation in scripture, the comments are usually carnality throwing a fit.
Btw most of what is said is simply blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
Once I realised this and repented then quoting scripture was not as important than just loving people. What is the greatest command? Quote scripture or love people?
Christians should always be excited to hear scripture, there is no love outside of scripture.
Can you realise that quoting scripture is not loving sometimes and is not what a individual needs at the given time?
In otherwords one should exalt self and deny scripture.
Maybe you are to comfortable to the gross unbelief and blashemy spoken in this post.
My loving question to you is Do you love Jesus, then his people?
When you love him and his people you will always put his word first place, to me it is life, not a whipping stick, those that speak as such usually oppose it. consider how the gross error hurt's and hinders people.
all over the place out of control in a silly manner, and still the person when they stop