Thread: The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Admin
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 22 Oct, 2013 04:21 PM
This is the logical and Biblical outcome of women usurping the man's authority and the outworking of errant theology.
NOTICE: This female "pastor" married a female "bishop". You will see a lot more of this in the future.
Abrams, however, maintains that she will continue teaching and doing what God called her to do. "I'm still going to preach and teach and do what God has called me to do," she said.
Sound familiar?
----------
Judg 21:25
In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
"I'm still going to preach and teach and do what God has called me to do," she said.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
------------------------------
Baptist Pastor Tells Church She's Married to Female Bishop and Resigns; Claims Scripture Supports Same-Sex Love
By Leonardo Blair
October 21, 2013|12:25 pm
A fiery female Baptist pastor from Detroit shocked conservatives in her church and triggered a rift among the membership when she resigned after revealing she married a female bishop from Washington, D.C several months ago, charging that the Bible supports it.
Bishop Allyson D. Nelson Abrams was once married to a man and become the first female pastor of the Zion Progress Baptist Church, according to the Detroit Free Press.
On Oct. 6, however, Abrams, who is also a mother, revealed to the congregation she had pastored for five years that she was in love with Diana Williams, a bishop emeritus with the Imani Temple African-American Catholic Congregation in Washington, D.C. She resigned after revealing her Sapphic nuptial to Williams, which took place in March in Iowa where same-sex marriage is legal.
She also resigned as secretary of the Council of Baptist Pastors of Detroit and Vicinity, an influential group of African-American Christians in metro Detroit. She stepped down as co-editor of the magazine of the Progressive National Baptist Convention as well, according to the report.
Abrams, who holds a doctorate degree in ministry and a degree in mechanical engineering from Howard University, shared scripture with the Detroit Free Press in arguing that homosexual relationships are allowable in Christian practice. She pointed to St. Luke 7:1-10 which speaks to the love a man has for his male servant.
"We all know that we've been made in God's image, and so no matter what you look like, no matter who you are, no matter what your orientation is," people should be free to love who they want, she explained to the Detroit Free Press.
"Love is something that's supposed to be unconditional," she explained. "And as Christians, if anybody is supposed to be loving, we are."
She noted that her theology had evolved over the years and her concept of love and sexual orientation changed "a little over a year ago."
"I progressed in my theology and came to the point where I would love whichever came to me. I wasn't just open to (a specific) gender, I was open to love in whatever way the Lord would bless me," she said.
She said she resigned because she didn't want to cause a rift in the church, but she had already done that when she exchanged vows with Diana Williams in March and didn't tell the church and some members found out what she had done before she made the Oct. 6 revelation. Some of the members she said supported her decision while others disagreed with her gay marriage.
"Bishop Abrams is a very intelligent, conscientious and progressive minister," the Rev. Charles C. Adams, pastor of Hartford Memorial Baptist Church, noted in the report. "She has done a lot to people.
"She, herself did not seek to make this an issue," he explained. "It was an issue that from my understanding was ignited by rumors and innuendos ... somebody looking up the marriage certificate on the Internet."
Other ministers were not as supportive.
Elder Levon Yuille, pastor of The Bible Church in Ypsilanti, dismissed gay marriage as "diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Bible," and argued that Abrams should give up her lesbian relationship or stop teaching.
"To be in accordance with scripture, she would have to give up that type of homosexual lifestyle," he said.
Abrams, however, maintains that she will continue teaching and doing what God called her to do.
"People have the right to interpret scripture whatever way they please," said Abrams. "I respect difference of opinions.
"I'm still going to preach and teach and do what God has called me to do," she said.
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 22 Oct, 2013 04:44 PM
It appears that Ms. Abrams missed my post and skipped over just a few verses in her Bible. God's way is NOT negotiable. Make no mistake about it, Ms. Abrams is a Jezebel. The natural outworking of idolatry (worshiping a "god" of your own devising) is sexual sin.
------
Many women in Christendom these days are under the complete misunderstanding that it is proper and acceptable for a woman to teach a man in an assembly of believers. Egalitarianism in the assembly is unbiblical; plain and simple. The men are the ones given the authority to teach and the women are to remain silent. They are NOT to teach. There are no verses supporting women teaching men in an assembly of believers. Men alone are given authority to teach, to become pastors and elders.
Authority over the man is DENIED to the woman according to the creation order and according to the penalty of the curse. They are to submit to the man's authority. Thus sayeth the law:
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
1 Tim. 2:13-14
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Cor. 11: 8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
To be clear again, it is improper for a woman to teach in an assembly or to be in a position of authority over a man. Let's look at what the Word of God teaches on this subject.
Rev 2:20
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
NOTICE THE FIRST ISSUE: They suffered ( G1439 "eao"- permit) her to teach. "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, to teach." Now, in addition to this, her teaching was seductive. It
caused the hearers to commit idolatry. (1 Kings 16:31-32 & 1 Kings 21:25-26)
Dr. Tony Garland in his commentary on Revelation makes the following observations:
"Jezebel of Thyatira not only taught error, but exercised teaching authority over men in opposition to role distinctions set forth by Paul ( 1Tim 2:12). As Paul explains, such role distinctions are not cultural, but grounded in God�s created
order (1Tim. 2:13-14). The error of the Thyatiran church was not just that Jezebel was allowed to promote unbiblical concepts, but that she evidently held a position as a teacher over men. This is another point of identification with the strong-willed, domineering Jezebel of the OT. No doubt, both her position of influence and the content of her teaching were repugnant to God."
1 Cor 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak ( G2980 "laleo" - to talk, to utter words) but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Women are forbidden to speak in church. Here is Dr. John Gill commenting on this passage:
"They may not speak in such sort, as carried in it direction, instruction, government, and authority. It was not allowed by God that they should speak in any authoritative manner in the church; nor was it suffered in the churches of Christ; nor was it admitted of in the Jewish synagogue; there, we are told the men came to teach, and the women "to hear": and one of their canons runs thus;
"a woman may not read (that is, in the law), "in the congregation", because of the honour of the congregation;''
Women are to submit themselves to the men and to learn in silence.
1 Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
They are NOT PERMITTED TO TEACH or to USURP the male authority.
1 Tim: 2:12-13 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Men are the ones that are to hold the authoritative offices of pastors/bishops/elders etc.
1 Timothy 3: 1-2a "THIS is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...." - Notice - if a man be a bishop, etc. Not if anyone wants to be.
Also see, Titus 1: 6 -- "Husband of one wife......apt to teach...."
So then, when are women permitted to teach men in an assembly ( a gathering of believers)? They are not. That means not taking an authoritative tone and/or not having the intent to "school" a man in what they need to know. Woman are not to have a didactic attitude toward a man. Period.
Do women have any authority to teach at all? Yes, they do.
Titus 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Can any woman teach other women? NO.. only those who are "aged" ( that is mature in the faith) . They must also first have behavior which becometh holiness, not false accusers, not drunkards and teachers of "good things" What are the older women to teach the younger?
-Love husbands
-Love children
-Discretion
-Chastity
-Homemaking
-Goodness (character)
-Submission to ones husband
NOTICE: Women are not told that they may teach theological issues even to other women.
OBJECTIONS:
1. Men and women are equal
Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
This verse relates to salvation, it has nothing to do with authority or office. It has nothing to say about our subject whatsoever. Those who try to apply this verse otherwise do so in exegetical error.
2. What about Deborah, Ruth, Esther, etc.
What about them?
3. What about Priscilla? She taught Apollos.
Acts 18:26
"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
First, notice that she and her husband took Apollos aside. This confirms that Priscilla understood the command against speaking in an assembly. Also, please take notice that the Scripture is not specific who did the "expounding". All we can conclude from this is that the husband and wife were together when Apollos was being instructed.
4. What about Timothy?
2 Timothy 1:51
"I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well."
2 Timothy 3:15
"You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus."
All that we can conclude here is that Timothy was raised in the faith. He was taught the Scriptures as a child -- not as a man.
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 22 Oct, 2013 06:09 PM
The stories you posted are just as much from the lack of men assuming their roles.
In fact, historically, all societies eventually lose their focus on the family, men and women roles and begin seeking pleasure from whatever form they choose, forsaking Biblical principles.
In some cases, a man takes the lead to bring back the truth but in many cases the woman in a family is the one that holds to the Biblical teachings and trains up the child.
As it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, so shall it be in the end of time.
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 23 Oct, 2013 01:25 AM
Many of the male clergy no longer hold or teach or preach the Bible. I am not advocating nor do I support or believe that women should be pastors or preachers in that sense. Never have, never will.
If you look at church attendance, there are many more women attending then men. And many wonder why young men don't stay in church...what example do they have to follow?
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 23 Oct, 2013 05:47 AM
:laugh: Close to 90% of all churches teach Arminian theology, Do you want to know why men aren't in the churches? That's why. The preaching and teaching is impotent and effeminate because the 'god' of Arminianism is impotent and effeminate. If you are looking for the men........try a Calvinist church. :laugh:
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 23 Oct, 2013 07:24 AM
How about a Lutheran Church ???...:excited:...Only men preach and teach in the church assembly...and the women teach boys and girls in Sunday School....:bouncy:...XO
The Logical and Biblical Outcome of Women Usurping the Man's Role
Posted : 23 Oct, 2013 08:51 AM
I agree with 90% of what IWA is teaching here, but I think it just goes too far when he says women can't "speak or teach" at all. The woman "jezebel" was teaching FORNICATION, it was not that she was just simply "teaching". My church teaches "free will", or what IWA generalizes as "arminianism", and yet we maintain the gender roles portrayed in the bible. We also think that it's ok for a woman to speak and teach as long as there is male authority over her in case she begins getting off track, but the same principle applies to men under that authority as well. I think every church is going through this worldly "social reformation" that we are experiencing, it's not limited to a specific denomination, and I'm sure that if we searched the reformed or Calvinist movements, we would find women who were breaking the instructions listed here. I know of one at least, it was the only time I've talked to a group of "reformed" Christians in person, and the only woman in the group was instructing me in what I should be doing. How dare she instruct ME, a MAN, an ordained DEACON?! Those reformed people, they need to get their women under control!!:ribbit::laugh:
I know Ellen White is probably going to come up again, but she only spoke what she believed God told her to speak, she was never an elected or ordained leader in the church, and her husband was the highest "elder" for several terms(the general conference president), so she did have some authority under him even if she wasn't spoken to by God. She also promoted %90 of the instruction listed in the OP, the original plan for church authority in the new testament.
"Soon after the Millerite disappointment, the little flock of Sabbatarian Adventists was confronted with many divergent views which threatened its very survival. In a vision related in her 1854 Supplement to "Experience and Views", Ellen White inquired of an angel as to how harmony could be brought within the ranks of this new fledgling group and how the enemy with his errors could be driven back. The angel pointed to God's word and gospel order as the solution. These would bring the church into the unity of the faith and would secure the members from false teachers. But how would early Adventists do this since they had no church organization? Scripture had the answer. They were to follow the example of the early Christian church (cf. EW 100-101).
"I saw that in the apostles' day the church was in danger of being deceived and imposed upon by false teachers. Therefore the brethren chose men who had given good evidence that they were capable of ruling well their own houses and preserving order in their own families, and who could enlighten those who were in darkness (EW 100-101).
Thus, as the early church and the apostles chose qualified men to serve as leaders and ordained them, so the early Adventist church was to proceed. The solution to false teachings and anarchy was the ordination of able men who would supervise and look after the interests of the people"(EW 101).
"Building upon the experience of the early church, and in the midst of much disorganization and lack of structure, she counseled the brethren that God desires his people to follow the New Testament model in the ordination of its first ministers. Early Adventists were to select men "and set them apart to devote themselves entirely to His work. This act would show the sanction of the church to their going forth as messengers to carry the most solemn message ever given to men" (ibid., cf. AA 95-96) Harmony and order could then be preserved in the Adventist movement through the ordination of ministers."
"That the pope or bishop anoints, makes tonsures, ordains, consecrates, or dresses differently from the laity, may make a hypocrite or an idolatrous oil-painted icon, but it in no way makes a Christian or spiritual human being. In fact, we are all consecrated priests through Baptism, as St. Peter in 1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings."
Martin Luther
"How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry and consented to by us ? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us, in what has not been committed to them except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom." In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: "No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God."
Martin Luther
Every Christian is a minister, but there are gender roles and church authority to consider. I also believe in the complete authority and sovereignty of God, He can ordain anyone to any function that He so desires. If He wants to use the weak to humble the proud, He will do so. If He wants to use the foolish to confound the wise, He will do so.
