Author	Thread: How do some believe in free will?
dljrn04 View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 29 Nov, 2012 02:32 AM Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 5 Dec, 2012 12:40 PM Again, I believe in God because I read the bible, not the other way around. I came to these beliefs through the bible, not the other way around. I believe this way because this is what I read in the bible, not the other way around. What I just wrote is a true statement, I would appreciate it if you would take it as my word versus telling me what I think. I know that sounds a little testy, but I'm just simply saying it, no undue emotion whatsoever. I just don't think the discussion is really possible if you're telling me what I think, or vice-versa. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 6 Dec, 2012 05:58 AM No offense but your arguments from scripture consisted of God telling men to repent and believe. That is your evidence that men can indeed repent and believe and that they have free will. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 6 Dec, 2012 08:11 AM On top of all the other biblical examples/verses, I would certainly think that if the bible writers and God were so insistent about this whole "God forces your degenerative heart to be changed without any faith on your part", that it would say so a bit more, and that all the places where is says "repent/turn/confess/have faith/believe and be saved" it would say "you're saved, now you have faith". Without that, I don't think it's really fair to say someone who believes in free will is twisting scripture. Especially since someone like me believes that it's a simple acknowledgement of the truth that Jesus died for my sins, and not really even a "choice". God brings a knowledge of the truth about sin and Himself, whether I want it or not, I just don't think that counts as God taking away the moral duality that he created us with, and that he never said was gone. Also, when Jesus healed people, what did he say to them? "Your faith has made you whole". I think just faith is pretty important, and no one has been able to convince me that faith is a work that earns salvation. The only thing is an argument saying that since faith is required on our part, that means God doesn't get all the glory. However, "have faith and you will be saved" is in the bible". "Having faith robs God of glory", is not in the bible. How is realizing our complete sinfulness and begging God for forgiveness and mercy considered a work that robs glory from God? Begging doesn't mean we're saved. God still has to do it all. In fact, maybe it even gives God MORE glory, because he gets to exercise even more mercy, which is his most glorious attribute! No amount of begging or faith or forgiveness can MAKE God have mercy and save us, so there's no way it will ever "earn" anything. "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 6 Dec, 2012 08:29 AM " if the bible writers and God were so insistent about this whole "God forces your degenerative heart to be changed without any faith on your part", that it would say so a bit more" No one said has said that faith is not part of it. Like I said, you keep giving verses where men are told to believe as your proof that men are capable of believing and that men have a free will. You ignore the scriptures that teach the opposite. That's hardly solid ground to stand on. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 6 Dec, 2012 01:53 PM I've never seen a verse that says men cannot have faith. I'd like to see it if you have one. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 05:25 AM I've given several showing the depravity of man and several showing that man are chosen by God's sovereign choice. You know...all the verses you never responded to? Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 06:39 AM I apologize, and the reason I probably don't dispute those verses are because I agree with them. I do believe that men are degenerate and would never seek God. But I don't think that means men can't have faith, especially when I think God moves throughout the world in many ways, and on top of it all, He offered his son to draw us to Himself. I'd still like to see a verse that says men cannot have faith if you have the time. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 06:51 AM Again, showing that God is the one who Chooses is showing exactly that. Showing that man does things according to his nature is exactly that. Man has a will, but man's will acts according to man's nature. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 10:28 AM I'm not sure, because I believe that God chooses through foreknowledge only, and not through a literal overpowering of the human free moral will. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	How do some believe in free will? Posted : 7 Dec, 2012 12:22 PM Yes but you do so without the scriptural backing. I've given sufficient evidence to show that foreknowledge does not mean what you claim it means. This free moral will thing is not something that's taught in scripture. Post Reply

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