It's sort of more of a theological question rather than a philosophical question.
I don't know how to word it, so I'll put it as well as I can. Well here's the discussion or example of a debate I've seen on this.
Man 1: Jesus said to turn the other cheek, that is put up no resistance.
Man 2: Yes, he did... but is it Christian to allow someone to harm someone else, perhaps a member of your family or a loved one and not fight back, or put up resistance?
Man 1: If you belong to Christ, and are a child of the Lord then the Lord will be your protection and would not allow these things to happen to you or your family.
Okay, that's all. Which of these things these men are stating is right? Feel free to post any scriptures that come to heart.
This is not a question about gun ownership and whether or not that's good or bad, it's more about like the very idea of self-defense and what the Lord says about it.
If you don't want to post something here publicly, feel free to message me privately.
Man 2: Hey, I just thought of something, Why didn't you call the police or over to that Marine base across the street from your house? I bet you could have gotten some immediate help.
Man 1: Are you kidding me? All of those guys are sworn killers. They made evil oaths.:devil: The Bible says not to do that.
Sometimes a tragedy (violence, rape, murder) happening to you is just what you need to bring you back to your knees. Humility is a good thing!
So many people actually think the Lord is overly concerned with your physical state, your well being, wealth, happiness.
Let us look to his own Son. Christ was brutally tortured/murdered for a reason. Are you better than Christ? The apostles/prophets were persecuted/killed. Are you better than they were? What makes any of you think you're going to get off any better than they did if you serve the Lord?
It's HIS PLAN, HIS WILL...and your will/happiness doesn't enter into it. Your reward comes later.
As far as tragedy goes...everyone on Earth is going to get their share shortly.
Romans 12:17-21: "Do not repay anyone evil for evil...Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: :It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary:If you enemy is hungry feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good!!
Luke 6:27-30,35: Jesus commands, "But I tell you who hear Me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stiop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, DO NOT demand it back...But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your REWARD will be GREAT, and you will be the sons of the Most High, because He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked!!."
2 Corinthians 10:2-4: "I beg you that when I come I amy not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people:devil: who think that we live by the standards of this world. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world :devil:does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world!!! On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds!!"
So Christians :angel:are commanded in the New Covenant to ALWAYS offer up the other cheek and to never make a vow to obey an unbelieving commanding officer and to only use the most powerful Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.
I John 2:3-6: "We know that we have come to know Him {Jesus} IF we:angel: obey His commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what He commands is a liar:devil:, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone:angel: obeys His Word, God's love is truly mad e complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him {The Prince of Peace}: Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did!!":bow::angel:
I have no arguments on turning the other cheek, in fact that's what I've always believed and promoted, however, here is a scenario...
A man breaks into your home to rape/kill your family. You kill him in self defense. He was dead spiritually, now he's dead physically. Most would say it's justified defense of one's family.
Now what is the Lord's will?
Luke 15 seems clear...
3 So He told them this parable, saying, 4 �What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, �Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!� 7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
The Lost Coin
8 �Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, �Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!� 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.�
So now let's turn the tables...
The man breaks into your home to rape/kill your family and instead of defending yourself and your family you kneel before him, tell him you love him, tell him you forgive him, tell him that the Lord loves him, and then let him do what he came to do.
Yes, it's a very horrific prospect to think about, however, if after this experience takes place, the police capture this man and, while in jail, waiting for years on death row, he comes to know the Lord & Christ and repents, then the Father's will is served!
Defending yourself and killing the 'intruder' removes any chance of his repentance and does not serve the Father's will does it? Whereas your suffering and dying a horrible death 'may' actually be part of the Father's will.
Christ's command to turn the other cheek does fit with the Father's will.
However, it's not done yet...
There's another aspect to consider...
Those who take the Mark of the Beast in the Tribulation...they in essence make themselves enemies of the Lord. I don't see much chance for their salvation once they accept the MOB. I'm guessing the Lord's deluding influence will also come into play as they will believe the false prophet is the Messiah returned? Defending yourself against such as these 'may' not go against the Father's will as they are already spiritually dead. A zombie if you will (walking dead).
Revelation 14
Doom for Worshipers of the Beast
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, �If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.� 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
I hope this brings some enlightenment to you all. And I am in no way advocating killing or harming anyone either, MOB or otherwise.
All of you will have to follow your heart as guided by the Lord.
Planting seeds of love is one of our jobs as believers. Discerning the fertile ground is the hard part. :)
Mark 4
Parable of the Sower and Soils
4 He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. 2 And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, 3 �Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4 as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. 6 And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.� 9 And He was saying, �He who has ears to hear, let him hear.�
10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, �To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.�
Explanation
13 And He *said to them, �Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.�
21 And He was saying to them, �A lamp is not brought to be put under a basket, is it, or under a bed? Is it not brought to be put on the lampstand? 22 For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.� 24 And He was saying to them, �Take care what you listen to. By your standard of measure it will be measured to you; and more will be given you besides. 25 For whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.�
Parable of the Seed
26 And He was saying, �The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; 27 and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows�how, he himself does not know. 28 The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. 29 But when the crop permits, he immediately [g]puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.�
You have claimed Valde that it may be OK to kill those who have received to Mark of the Beast during the 1260 day Great Tribulation since they have no chance of repenting and going to heaven.
However all the commands of Jesus in His new Covenant will still be valid during the Great Tribulation.
Revlation 12:17: Then the Dragon {Satan} was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those:angel: who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus !! Which would include loving all your enemies and always offering up the other cheek!:angel:
What follows is personal opinion, and it's not really nailed down yet....it's kind of complicated and possibly self-conflicting....
I don't believe God is in the business of self-defense. He put himself in harms way, and died to save even the worst of sinners who transgressed his law. Sinners that even murder and torment his children. So I'm not entirely sure it is a christian attitude to kill someone to save yourself. Incapacitate, maybe:boxing::goofball:. I would say a safe area would be to do everything possible to avert death/pain for yourself and others, including the ones doing the dirty deeds.
However, I do believe it is a christian and godly attitude to save others and to stand for their defense. Anytime we're not acting in our own interest, but in the best interest of others, I think it's always good thing. If possible, stop the perpetrator and save the innocent, even if it means killing the perpetrator, which is how I believe God has always dealt with sin. It is not his desire that any should perish, but those who choose to perpetuate sin and suffering to themselves and those around them have to be stopped somehow. It's God's strange act. A loving, saving God...destroying beings that he loves to save those that he loves.
It can be argued then, "Why doesn't God step in all the time and save everyone that is being persecuted". I would argue that it's because God isn't just trying to save the persecuted from persecution, he's trying to save the persecutors as well. So, as Christians, very often we are called to suffer and die, the persecuted are called to be saved THRU persecution, not from it, thereby even saving others. Paul was one such person God could have just struck down, I'm sure there are many more. Paul went on to spread the gospel to many, and became a martyr in his own right, saving thousands more for eternity.
I guess it comes down to this, do you value your own mortal life over another? Even when you believe you are here to save that person? Even when you believe you have an eternal life waiting for you? I'm not sure how we should deal with that exactly, but I believe we have examples in Jesus and the apostles.
Again, I do think it's morally right to save the persecuted, just that maybe we shouldn't be so hasty to terminate people for our own personal temporal safety.
And I know it's easy to call the atomic bombs on Japan an evil act, but I think we need to look deeper. How many people, civilians/soldiers, would have died if we had not done that? The Japanese were flying suicide missions into ships, mothers and children jumping off cliffs at the thought of being captured by the Allies. This was on and over little tiny islands in the pacific. How hard would they have fought, how many would they have killed, and how many would have killed themselves over their homeland? Maybe there was another way, but I don't think you can fault our military when they were faced with that decision. More people died during the battle for one island than died from the atomic bombs.
Battle of Okinawa
"The battle has been referred to as the "Typhoon of Steel" in English, and tetsu no ame("iron rain") or kou no kaze ("steel wind") in Japanese. The nicknames refer to the ferocity of the fighting, the intensity of kamikaze attacks from the Japanese defenders, and to the sheer numbers of Allied ships and armored vehicles that assaulted the island. The battle resulted in the highest number of casualties in the Pacific Theater during World War II. Japan lost over 100,000 soldiers, who were either killed, captured or committed suicide, and the Allies suffered more than 65,000 casualties of all kinds. Simultaneously, tens of thousands of local civilians were killed, wounded, or committed suicide. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused Japan to surrender just weeks after the end of the fighting at Okinawa."
Valde reasoned that: "The man breaks into your home to rape/kill your family and instead of defending yourself and your family you kneel before him, tell him you love him, tell him you forgive him, tell him that the Lord loves him, and then let him do what he came to do."
"Defending yourself and killing the 'intruder' removes any chance of his repentance and does not serve the Father's will does it? Whereas your suffering and dying a horrible death 'may' actually be part of the Father's will."
Congratulations, you have just argued that the "rights" of the rapist/killer to perpetrate his crimes are more important than the rights of the victims not to be raped/murdered on the basis of a supposed chance at repentance after the fact. This is 180 degrees from the Biblical view of justice. A Biblical view would value the life and safety of the innocent over the life and safety of the guilty.
