To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated.
I kind of assumed something there based on what I seen you post in the past, but I don't know that's what you believe for sure, and I'm sure it's much more subtle than that, so please forgive the assumption!
No you are right about my beliefs. I believe that a man is made to believe by being given life. You believe that man believes and is then given life. I believe this doesn't adequately address the scriptures that teach man is dead in trespasses. A dead man can't simply just believe. Furthermore, if man chooses then man gets the glory for his salvation. Because, if one is saved, it's because of his own doing. Why are you saved and not your neighbor? Because you did something.
I think one of the hang ups here is the translation you are using. It's not that it's a bad translation, but it can certain add confusion to this whole discussion.
The ESV renders it...."18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
Here is the NASB...."18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
When words are added such as "free gift" it certainly makes it seem like what you are saying is the implication. However I believe we are to understand the verse that Jesus death leads to justification and life for all who it covers. I don't believe we are to read it as Jesus giving a free gift to all because that's not what's being said here, just as it's not being said that Adam gave everyone a free gift of death.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
I believe verse 17 touches on what I'm talking about. It speaks of life for those who are in Christ and not a gift of life made available to all. None of these verses mention that the free gift is offered to everyone, just that it is a free gift. We can assume that the free gift must be for everyone, but that is more based off emotion than what the text actually says.
GUD: "I don't believe we are to read it as Jesus giving a free gift to all because that's not what's being said here, just as it's not being said that Adam gave everyone a free gift of death."
"I believe verse 17 touches on what I'm talking about. It speaks of life for those who are in Christ and not a gift of life made available to all. None of these verses mention that the free gift is offered to everyone, just that it is a free gift. We can assume that the free gift must be for everyone, but that is more based off emotion than what the text actually says. "
:bouncy:**I'm not so sure. I'm not sure how you're getting this, but the text does not say anywhere that it's only offered to the ones "in Christ". It's offered "through Christ" to all men, in the same way that death came to all men through one man.
GUD: "The ESV renders it...."18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
Here is the NASB...."18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
"When words are added such as "free gift" it certainly makes it seem like what you are saying is the implication. However I believe we are to understand the verse that Jesus death leads to justification and life for all who it covers. I don't believe we are to read it as Jesus giving a free gift to all because that's not what's being said here, just as it's not being said that Adam gave everyone a free gift of death."
:bouncy:**I not sure how taking "the free gift" out changes what it says either way. One act led to life for all men. I only believe it is applied when someone believes in it as the truth, the truth that God loved me enough that he sent his only son to die for my sins, and not only my sins, but the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
:bouncy:**It specifically limits it to Christians, AND then to the whole world.
1 Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
:bouncy:**This verse limits it to sinners, and we are all sinners.
Acts 2:21:
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
:bouncy:**An excellent example of Christ is the bronze serpent in the wilderness. The people were not saved from poison just because Moses made the snake. They had to look at the snake in faith. "Look and live".
John 3:14-15
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
GUD: "You believe that man believes and is then given life. I believe this doesn't adequately address the scriptures that teach man is dead in trespasses. A dead man can't simply just believe. Furthermore, if man chooses then man gets the glory for his salvation. Because, if one is saved, it's because of his own doing. Why are you saved and not your neighbor? Because you did something."
**Can you show me from the bible where it says a dead man can't believe?
John 11:24-26
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 5:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Romans 7:9-10
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
:bouncy:**I would also like to see where the bible says "belief" or "faith" is considered a "work" or "earning salvation". They are typically polar opposites in the bible. I don't think that if someone is handing me a gift, and I believe it is real, that it means I earned it. Especially not a gift so priceless as the life of the Son of God to a sinner that in no way will ever deserve it.
My belief follows the line of thought that even though we are dead and evil and degenerate, even a "dead" person can recognize good and love and give nice gifts to their children(Matt 5:46-48; Matt 7:11). I believe that no man can save himself. I do think a "dead" man can believe, but salvation is still all God's doing. I believe that God has created us as free moral beings. In the garden of Eden, God says "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good AND evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". God only took away eternal life, not our will. We have degenerated our will, and worshiped ourselves to the point where we are entirely corrupt, but we can still believe, and we can still see the difference between good and evil. When God brings us to a knowledge of the truth thru his son's sacrifice and the foolishness of preaching, and when we acknowledge the truth, He has provided the means and power by which we are saved. He has even given us the "faith" that allows us to believe in the first place(Romans 12:3). It is all God, and not of works. In essence, I'm not even saying that a man "chooses" to be saved. He just simply believes the truth. I think that is very fitting with the rest of the bible.
Here's some more verses.
Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Galatians 5:6
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Psalm 55:16
16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the Lord shall save me.
Psalm 37:40
40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
Isaiah 45:22
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:47
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Ezekiel 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 All his ransgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
Luke 13
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above
all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Matthew 10:33
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Ehpesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2 Timothy 2:12
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
You...."I'm not so sure. I'm not sure how you're getting this, but the text does not say anywhere that it's only offered to the ones "in Christ". It's offered "through Christ" to all men, in the same way that death came to all men through one man."
I'm saying that it brought life to all those who are in Christ. The text doesn't say it's offered "through Christ" to all men. That's why I was pointing out the danger of using that specific translation here.
" One act led to life for all men. I only believe it is applied when someone believes in it as the truth"
That's fine, but I originally asked if the context made it impossible to read it the way I am. The reason you gave seemed sufficient but that's because you were using the translation that called it a free gift for everyone. I believe that definitely changes it because it never actually says it's a free gift for everyone.
"It specifically limits it to Christians, AND then to the whole world."
It depends what is meant by world though doesn't it? John 11:51-52 is a parallel and gives us a better understanding of what is meant...."51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
John uses "world" several times and it rarely ever means, "all people everywhere".
Here is a great read on propitiation in 1 John 2:2 that you might want to read in full. I will only quote the part where the author lays out his view of what the verse means.
" The ethnological interpretation asserts that the term "world" in both I John 2:2 and John 3:16, although including the geographical and eschatological views, also stresses that some without distinction, not all without exception, out of the Gentiles as well as out of the Jews (Rom. 9:24) have had their sins propitiated by the death of Christ. It is as though the Lord were saying: "The Jews, Nicodemus, no longer have a national monopoly on the salvation of Jehovah. Do you not, Nicodemus, remember the words of the prophet Isaiah who said, 'I will also give the Holy One of Israel for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth' (Isa. 49:6)? Nicodemus, did not the psalmist prophesy of me when he said, 'therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name' (Ps. 18:49)?" Did not "the apostles and brethren that were in Judea," when "they heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God," declare: "then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18)? Is not the term "world" used of the Gentiles by the apostle Paul in Romans 11:11,12,15? Certainly it is. Is it used absolutely (meaning all Gentiles without exception) or is it used relatively (meaning all Gentiles without distinction)? Relative, otherwise Christ's teaching on hell would be erroneous. But if kosmos refers to Gentiles in a relative sense in Romans 11 (and it does), is this how the apostle John uses it in I John 2:2? The writer believes it is. But can it be established whether John, who was probably writing from Ephesus in Asia Minor, was writing first of all to Jewish believers in his epistle while living in a Gentile environment? Arthur Pink cites four convincing reasons that he was. They are:
(1) In the opening verse he says of Christ, "Which we have seen with our eyes. . . and our hands have handled." How impossible it would have been for the apostle Paul to have commenced any of his epistles to Gentile saints with such language! (2) "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning" (I John 2:7). The "beginning" here referred to is the beginning of the public manifestation of Christ�in proof compare 1:1, 2:13, etc. Now these believers, the apostle tells us, had the "old commandment" from the beginning. This was true of Jewish believers, but it was not true of Gentile believers. (3) "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning" (2:13). Here, again, it is evident that it is Jewish believers that are in view. (4) "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us" (2:18,19). These brethren to whom John wrote had "heard" from Christ Himself that Antichrist should come (see Matt. 24). The "many antichrists" whom John declares "went out from us" were all Jews, for during the first century none but a Jew posed as the Messiah. Therefore, when John says "He is the propitiation for our sins," he can only mean for the sins of Jewish believers. (It is true that many things in John's Epistle apply equally to believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Christ is the Advocate of the one, as much as of the other.)25
Furthermore, when John added, "and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," he signified that
Christ was the propitiation for the sins of the Gentile believers too, for, . . . "the world" is a term contrasted from Israel. This interpretation is unequivocally established by a careful comparison of I John 2:2 with John 11:51,52, which is a strictly parallel passage: "And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." Here Caiaphas, under inspiration, made known for whom Jesus should "die." Notice now the correspondency of his prophecy with this declaration of John's: "He is the propitiation for our (believing Israelites) sins." "He prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation." "And not for ours only." "And not for that nation only." "But also for the whole world"�that is, Gentile believers scattered throughout the earth. "He should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."26
Conclusion
The reader will have to judge for himself which of the four universalistic interpretations of I John 2:2 is the most biblical. For this writer the ethnological view best interprets the meaning of the immediate and general context. It is the writer's position along with most historic Calvinists that in the first part of I John 2:2
the believing Jews alone are intended, of whom John was one; and the addition [last part of the verse] is not an extending of the propitiation of Christ to others than believers, but only to other believers [i.e., Gentile believers]. If it might be granted that in the first branch [first part of the verse] all believers then living were comprehended, who might presently be made partakers of this truth geographical view], yet the increase or accession [last part of the verse] must be, by analogy, only those who were to be in after ages [eschatological view] and remoter places than the name of Christ had then reached unto, � even all those who, according to the prayer of our Savior, John xvii. 20, should believe on his name to the end of the world.27
It can be readily seen from this interpretation that the geographical and eschatological views are both included within the ethnological interpretation. The geographical view is included by its very nature; that is, that God's elect are scattered among the Jews and Gentiles throughout the whole world. And it should be apparent that the ethnological and eschatological views are closely related as seen in John 3:16,17, where both are consecutively set forth. But Warfield's eschatological view, by itself, tends to minimize the geographical or world-wide aspect of Christ's atonement and fails to mention the ethnological view. Although all three views are in harmony with the scriptural doctrine of election, it is this writer's conclusion that the geographical and eschatological views do not, by themselves, fully answer the intention of the apostle John in I John 2:2. Rather it seems that John wants to make it clear to his readers in this verse (as well as John 3:16) that the Old Testament particularism in relation to the nation of Israel is now past, so he uses the universal term "whole world," Christ has now brought in the New Covenant and has prepared the way for New Testament universalism�a divine universalism which teaches that Messiah is the saviour of the spiritual seed of Abraham, who testify in' due season28 that they are none other than Christ's ransomed ones, God's elect. It is for this very reason that the sovereign grace ambassador of Christ knows that God will make "known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy" by calling them out "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" (Rom. 9:23,24). Therefore, he carries out the great commission with full assurance and much boldness, enduring "all things for the elect's sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (II Tim. 2:10)."
http://www.the-highway.com/1Jh2.2.html
"This verse limits it to sinners, and we are all sinners."
True, but it makes no mention of which sinners.
"Can you show me from the bible where it says a dead man can't believe?"
Actually a good analogy in scripture is Lazarus. What did Lazarus contribute to his being raised? What can a dead man do?
"I would also like to see where the bible says "belief" or "faith" is considered a "work" or "earning salvation". They are typically polar opposites in the bible. I don't think that if someone is handing me a gift, and I believe it is real, that it means I earned it. Especially not a gift so priceless as the life of the Son of God to a sinner that in no way will ever deserve it."
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God.
Anytime man does anything to gain salvation, he is doing a work. I believe the work is all Christ. Faith and belief in scripture is not defined as work because scripture teaches that those things are given by God.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8
GUD: "I'm saying that it brought life to all those who are in Christ. The text doesn't say it's offered "through Christ" to all men. That's why I was pointing out the danger of using that specific translation here."
:bouncy:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
:bouncy:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
:bouncy:Ok, but to me, it's just very clear. All men sinned, and Jesus died for everyone that sinned.
GUD: It depends what is meant by world though doesn't it? John 11:51-52 is a parallel and gives us a better understanding of what is meant...."51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
:bouncy: That was Jesus' main antagonist speaking, but either way, I've had this discussion a few times. If you want to interpret "the whole world", and "all men everywhere", and "not for ours only, but for the whole world", and "whosoever believeth", and "taste death for every man" etc...to mean that it's just talking about a select few, then I suppose that's your prerogative, I just don't think that's a fair interpretation of the bible. I could take many words and change them around like this, and it would no longer be much of a foundation to build doctrine on. There are several verses that I shared where it mentions the "elect"/"Christians" and then expands who the author is talking about to all men. I understand that not all men will be saved, but I believe that Jesus made provision for every sinner. The language used in the bible should be much different if that weren't the case. The seed would only be scattered on the fertile ground, all ten virgins would have made it to the wedding feast, etc.
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. 35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
GUD: Actually a good analogy in scripture is Lazarus. What did Lazarus contribute to his being raised? What can a dead man do?
:bouncy: I believe that there is a difference between being spiritually dead and physically dead. Do you have a verse that actually says that one who is dead "spiritually" cannot believe the truth? Even Satan believes. It is not always very accurate to apply every single aspect of an analogy to literal meaning. If I say I want to fly like a bird, it doesn't mean I want you to think I want to eat like one. I posted a few where Jesus implies that a dead man can believe.
John 5:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
GUD: Anytime man does anything to gain salvation, he is doing a work. I believe the work is all Christ. Faith and belief in scripture is not defined as work because scripture teaches that those things are given by God.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8
:bouncy: Even though I do believe that faith comes from God, I believe he gave a measure of faith to every man. In that verse, "Saved" is the gift, not faith". If you read it and the next verse more carefully, you'll see what I mean.
Ehpesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
""By grace you are saved through faith, not by grace you can have faith and are saved."
The way I see it, it is saying salvation is the gift, and it's contrasting faith and works again. Can't be saved by works, we're saved by grace through faith. I do think faith is also a gift though, simply that God has given us free will. We have the same opportunity to have faith, as we have the opportunity to repent. Repentance is a gift as well.
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Basically, I don't feel like faith or belief is a work. In my own experience, it does not feel like one, it doesn't make me feel like I earned my salvation in any way, it doesn't make me feel more special than any other soul on the planet, and it makes the desire to spread the gospel more pressing, because every soul is valuable to God. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, He wants every one to repent and turn from their evil ways, and He loved the whole world enough to send his Son to die. That is a much more glorious and beautiful view of God in my opinion.
If you have time, I would like to see how you reconcile all the verses I posted. I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm honestly very curious.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
There's more that I posted, but I didn't want to make this post hugely long again.
Isn't this the point I was making? That it's very clear to you using that interpretation?
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
Death came to all because all sinned...
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
One act of righteousness leads to life for all in what what? Clearly for all those who are in Christ. Nowhere does it say there was a free gift for all. You say that I'm not being fair with the text, but you are adding what is not there because you believe the free gift to be for all. Scripture doesn't teach this those. Scripture teaches that the gift is for all who believe. The question is who will believe.
" I just don't think that's a fair interpretation of the bible"
And why not? You have to look at context and not just words. "World" most of the time never means "all people everywhere". So it's actually more of a stretch to assume it does here. I am not changing words around but rather trying to understand what words mean within their context.
Here is another example for you showing where salvation was no longer just for Jews but for the whole world.
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called �the uncircumcision� by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands� 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit. Ephesians 2:11-22
Lazarus was physically dead and I called it an analogy. There is a definite difference between being physically and spiritually dead. However there is no difference in "dead" and the Lazarus analogy is still the way in which God raises spiritually dead men. It is not of themselves. It's all of God.
John 5:24-25 doesn't imply that a spiritually dead man can believe. It implies that whoever believes already has eternal life. It also says that all those who hear will have eternal life. That seems pretty specific to me.
"Do you have a verse that actually says that one who is dead "spiritually" cannot believe the truth? Even Satan believes. It is not always very accurate to apply every single aspect of an analogy to literal meaning."
Satan believes. We are talking about saving faith. As far as the meaning of words, I've been trying to teach you this exact principle in this thread. It seems you understand words have different meanings when it benefits you.
Now, do I have any verses?
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:7
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.� John 6:63-65...they didn't believe because it was not granted for them to do so.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ�by grace you have been saved� 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:5-10...It's all a work of God. Do you see in there where it was man who did something? Even the faith is a gift.
34 Jesus answered them, �Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. John 8:34...I'm sure you get the implication here.
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. ...."6 For God, who said, �Let light shine out of darkness,� has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:4,6....With man, impossible, but not with God. He is the one who shines the light for men to see and believe.
43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.� John 8:43-47...Notice what man is not capable of doing and notice that those who hear and believe are those who are of God.
Look at this..." 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."...Now this isn't specifically speaking of salvation. However who held the power here, man or God? If God hold the power to make men listen, then why does He not always do this? Does He not want every single person to be saved? Or has He not for is on reasons made some for eternal life and some for destruction?..."14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, �I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.� 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, �For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.� 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, �Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?� 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, �Why have you made me like this?� 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory� 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"....Speaks for itself and it also another place in which scripture teaches that salvation was not only for Jews but to the whole world.
25 Jesus answered them, �I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. John 10:25-27...Notice why they don't believe? They can't believe because they aren't His sheep.
Before you say that they could still believe although the verse clearly shows they can't, look at this...."37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
�Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?�39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,40 �He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.� John 12:37-40
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you. John 14:17
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
You asked... These are more than implications. I believe these scriptures are clear.
YOU..." In that verse, "Saved" is the gift, not faith". If you read it and the next verse more carefully, you'll see what I mean."
Both are possible grammatically. However, we have other scriptures that show us truth from both positions....that salvation is all of God, and that the faith to believe is of God as well.... 29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake Philippians 1:29....27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those WHO THROUGH GRACE HAD BELIEVED Acts 18:27
"Basically, I don't feel like faith or belief is a work. In my own experience, it does not feel like one, it doesn't make me feel like I earned my salvation in any way, it doesn't make me feel more special than any other soul on the planet"
Take you and your neighbor. Suppose that both of you have been exposed to the gospel in the same way. Why do you believe and he does not? You were either more sensitive to the message or you were just smarter and had more sense to respond to the gospel. So why are you saved and he is not? Because of something you did. In your view, man must make a contribution to his salvation, where as mine gives all the credit to God. You say that choosing God isn't a work, but it is indeed something that you must do to be saved. Why are there verses telling men to repent and believe even though men are incapable of doing so? Because the gospel call goes out to everyone since we here on earth do not know who will be saved and who won't. If you think God doesn't give standards that men can't meet, then I will direct your attention back to the law before Christ. Placing a standard on men doesn't not mean men are capable of accomplishing that standard. I've given sufficient verses in my opinion to show that God limits who can and cannot believe. If you feel like your belief is not a work, that's because you didn't accomplish it. God did.
