One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God�s love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live � in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul�s eternal interests, still less for God�s glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips � notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D. L. Moody � Captivated by Drummond�s �The Greatest Thing in the World� � did more than anyone else in the last century to popularize this concept.
It has been customary to say God loves the sinner though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner by sin? Is it not true that his �whole head is sick� and his �whole heart faint,� and that �from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness� in him? (Isa. 1:5,6) Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ-rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children�s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus, the perfect Teacher, telling sinners that God loves them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God�s love is never referred to at all! But when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth � God�s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being misunderstood let us say � and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country � there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., their absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God: to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.
If it be true that God loves every member of the human family, then why did our Lord tell His disciples �He that hath My commandments, and keepeth hem, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him.� (John 14:21,23)? Why say �he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father�? if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Prov. 8:17: �I love them that love Me.� Again we read, �Thou hatest all workers of iniquity� (Psa 5:5)! �God is angry with the wicked every day.� (Psa. 7:11) �He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God� � not �shall abide,� but even now � �abideth on him.� (John 3:36) Can God �love� the one on whom His �wrath� abides? Again, is it not evident that the words, �The love of God which is in Christ Jesus� (Rom. 8:39) marks a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again, is it not plain from the words �Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated� (Rom. 9:13) that god does not love everybody? Again, it is written, �For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth.� (Heb. 12:6) Does not this verse teach that God�s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that god will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change � He is �without variableness or shadow of turning�!
Turning now to John 3:16, it should be evident from the passages just quoted that this verse will not bear the construction usually put upon it. �God so loved the world. . .� Many suppose that this means the entire human race. But �the entire human race� includes all mankind from Adam till the close of earth�s history: it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, he history of mankind before Christ was born. Unnumbered millions lived and died before the savior came to the earth, lived here �having no hope and without God in the world,� and therefore passed out into an eternity of woe. If God �loved� them, where is the slightest proof thereof? Scripture declares �Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.� (Acts 14:16) Scripture declares that �And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.� (Rom. 1:28). To Israel God said, �You only have I known of all the families of the earth.� (Amos 3:2). In view of these plain passages who will be so foolish as to insist that God in the past loved all mankind! The same applies with equal force to the future. Read through the book of Revelation, noting especially chapters 8 to 19, where we have described he judgments which will be poured out from Heaven on this earth. Read of the fearful woes, the frightful plagues, the vials of God�s wrath, which shall be emptied on the wicked. Finally, read the twentieth chapter of the Revelation, the great white throne judgment, and see if you can discover there the slightest trace of love.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There are none good, no not one. All have sinned, so, according to your logic, God should hate every single one of us equally without distinction, "elect" or not.
Romans 10
"But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Of you who consider yourself "elected", do you still sin? If you say no, then the word is against you:
1 John 1
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
And if you say yes, then by your logic, God hates the elected just like he hates the damned, which also goes against the word. I'd say that if it goes against the word that much, then it's not in the word to begin with and you should probably reconsider your beliefs.
I'm of the opinion that this election theology is simply a rehash of the old "Jews vs Gentiles" argument that Paul was so against. The Jews were pretty upset that they weren't the special class, the chosen people, the only ones God loved. They didn't want the Gentiles to have a chance. They thought that they were a special people and that God hated everyone who wasn't a Jew. If you weren't born a jew, in which you had no choice or will-power to be, then you were damned, much like if you're not elected by God, in which you have no choice, you're not saved. The ideas behind both are exactly the same.
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Jesus himself is telling us love everyone, just like God loves everyone, even His enemies. Jesus defines perfection as "love for everyone". And of course, I understand that you're going to say that it's not really "love", it's just "preeminent grace" or whatever, but then you're adding something to the word that is not logically conveyed, and you'll do the same thing to John 3:16. "It's not REALLY love", "it's not REALLY the whole world". In my opinion, it's impossible to do that to this next verse though.
Romans 5:12-21
King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
All have sinned, all deserve death, but MUCH more powerfully, the free gift of God offers life to just as many men who were under death. All of them. And if they believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, that free gift which brings life, they will be saved.
Roans 10:9
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There are none good, no not one. All have sinned, so, according to your logic, God should hate every single one of us equally without distinction, "elect" or not. "
This is the point where I stopped reading the rest of your post. Why? because it was clear that you either did not understand everything else that had been said or you chose to willfully misrepresent what had been said. Either way, no need for me to continue reading given that your opening statement is a misrepresentation. :peace:
This is what I find dis-heartening about these kinds of posts...a person will say...I know it may seem very confusing...and then I remember verse...
1Cr 14:33 ~ For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
*** I never see or read on these kinds of posts anything about Peace with NO Confusioin...:rolleyes:...I mean really ??...Do any of you ???...I know some folks dont like it when I post "WORD" meanings...however...they are very Important when it comes to the Truth and the Gospel....SOooo...read through to the end here...Yall might be a lil surprised...
Confusion ~ akatastasia ~ G181~
1) instability, a state of disorder, disturbance, confusion
From base word ~ akatastato ~ G182~
1) unstable, inconstant, restless
From base word ~ kathist�mi ~ G2525 ~
1) to set, place, put
a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
b) to appoint one to administer an office
c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
e) to conduct or bring to a certain place
f) to show or exhibit one's self
2) come forward as
From base word ~ [[[[ ARE ya Ready for this ???? ]]]]
Alpha ~ G1 ~
1) first letter of Greek alphabet
2) Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
No CONFUSION here what so ever...Yall Hava GOD HolySpirit Filled day...xo
Gen 11: 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Let's see. Who confused the language? the Lord did - he authored it. Yes, that's right God authored confusion.
The name of the city mentioned, and the tower also, which signifies "confusion", as the Septuagint version renders it; and so Josephus says the Hebrews call confusion "Babel".
Josh 10:10 And Yahweh threw them into confusion before Yisra�ĕl, and they smote them with a great slaughter at Giḇ῾on, and pursued them along the way that goes to Beth-horon, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah
Hmmm.... God didn't author any confusion here, either, eh?
What about here?
Ex. 14: 24 "During the last watch of the night the LORD looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion."
Sadly Jude, the Bible just doesn't really support your claim.
I could continue to multiply verses and passages that do indeed show that God does in fact author confusion but this would require the readers to actually be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth, which clearly many here are unable to do.
Im taking about the Gospel message...Not the Reformed Elect message...NO Confusion...what part of that do you not understand ???...I never said GOD didn't do this that...Gezzz....Ya wana beat me and others with Scripture or ya talk about Yahshua and what HE has done ???...I never see Reformers here PREACH the Gospel...only Preach doctrine!!!!...but hey...to each there own right ???...xo
It is ironic that in the same chapter, indeed in the same context, in which our Lord teaches the utter necessity of rebirth to even see the kingdom, let alone choose it, non-Reformed views find one of their main proof texts to argue that fallen man retains a small island of ability to choose Christ. It is John 3:16: �For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.�
What does this famous verse teach about fallen man�s ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing. The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man�s natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.
Some may reply, �All right. The text does not explicitly teach that fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first, but it certainly implies that.� I am not willing to grant that the text even implies such a thing. However, even if it did it would make no difference in the debate. Why not? Our rule of interpreting Scripture is that implications drawn from the Scripture must always be subordinate to the explicit teaching of Scripture. We must never, never, never reverse this to subordinate the explicit teaching of Scripture to possible implications drawn from Scripture. This rule is shared by both Reformed and non-Reformed thinkers.
If John 3:16 implied a universal natural human ability of fallen men to choose Christ, then that implication would be wiped out by Jesus� explicit teaching to the contrary. We have already shown that Jesus explicitly and unambiguously taught that no man has the ability to come to him without God doing something to give him that ability, namely drawing him.
Fallen man is flesh. In the flesh he can do nothing to please God. Paul declares, �The fleshly mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God� (Rom. 8:7, 8).
We ask, then, �Who are those who are �in the flesh�?� Paul goes on to declare: �But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you� (Rom. 8:9). The crucial word here is if. What distinguishes those who are in the flesh from those who are not is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No one who is not reborn is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. People who are in the flesh have not been reborn. Unless they are first reborn, born of the Holy Spirit, they cannot be subject to the law of God. They cannot please God.
God commands us to believe in Christ. He is pleased by those who choose Christ. If unregenerate people could choose Christ, then they could be subject to at least one of God�s commands and they could at least do something that is pleasing to God. If that is so, then the apostle has erred here in insisting that those who are in the flesh can neither be subject to God nor please him.
We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he cannot act against his own will. He has no desire for Christ. He cannot choose what he does not desire. His fall is great. It is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him to faith.
