Scripture shows how humans can resist the truth, and the Holy Ghost:
Acts 6:9�Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.�
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.�
11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.�
12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Acts 7:51�Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost:as your fathers did, so do ye.
Romans 13:1�Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.�
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.�
2 Timothy 3:8�Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
James 4:7�Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.�
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
What does it mean to "harden" a man's heart, or to turn a king like a river? What spirit volunteered to lie in the mouths of the prophets? What does it have to do with free will?
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
Job 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Luke 9
51And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Jonah is a perfect example, God made Jonah do what God wanted him to do. How did God go about doing that? By removing Jonah's will? Removing an option, or closing a door, or influencing circumstances, or manipulating personalities is not the same thing as removing a will. Earthly fathers "control" their children "sovereignly" all the time, does the human father actually remove the child's will? And just a couple questions here, but which is more glorious or implies the most love and power: A "puppeteer", or a "father"? Now, what title does the bible use to refer to God the most? What title gives God the most glory and most accurately describes his character?
So, I God will remove your options, close your doors, influence your circumstances, manipulate your personality, etc. etc. But I am NOT a "puppeteer", I am your "Father". :laugh: Yeah, O.K.
Well, that certainly cleared things up, didn't it?
Jonah resisted God's will for him to go to Nineveh. Jonah realized he was being punished for his rebellion and thought it best for him to die and not have the rest of the people on the ship die. Jonah didn't know that God would send a fish/whale to rescue him. I believe Jonah wanted and expected to die.
God gave him a second chance by providing the whale...it took Jonah 3 days to change his mind and beg God for another chance.
Even after Jonah did what God told him, he got angry because God did not destroy the very people he worked to bring to repentance.
God used the vine as an example for Jonah and the rest of us...Jonah had more compassion for a vine than he did for the people of the city.
Did God CAUSE that fish to swallow Jonah? or did the fish use it's free will? :laugh:
Maybe Satan was trying to kill Jonah and made that fish swallow him, what do you all think?
Was the fish just a puppet in all of this and God a puppeteer? or did God just remove the fish's options, close the fish's doors, influence the fish's circumstances, and manipulate the fish's personality to get him to swallow Jonah? :laugh:
Maybe Jonah just got lucky that the fish was hungry right at that moment and just happened to be right in that same part of the sea at the exact time when they threw Jonah in? :laugh:
Obviously Satan did not make the whale as the Bible is clear. Did God make Jonah resist/rebel against His direction to go to Nineveh? No, Jonah chose to rebel. God punished Jonah's rebellion.
The challenge is understanding that God and will make things happen while still allowing humans to make mistakes. There is a consequence for disobedience...whether you're a Christian or not.
Samson was chosen. It he did not follow God'swill and paid a great price for it. Saul was chosen but didn't follow God completely. There are examples throughout the Bible of people who were examples to us...good and. Ad of people making right and wrong choices.
All I know is God forgave me of my sins when I asked for His forgiveness and gave me His free gift of eternal life. I have assurance of where I will spend eternity.
IWA, I assume you're just joking around and trying to make a point, but God didn't create fish in His image, or give fish the dominion over the earth, or set the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the fish's path. I hope you can see the special distinctions and plans and purposes for humans instilled in us by God himself, and we were very clearly given the ability to make free moral decisions. And just for the record, the bible does say that God "sent" a fish, it does not say that God forced the fish by His sovereign will. :goofball:
"So, I God will remove your options, close your doors, influence your circumstances, manipulate your personality, etc. etc. But I am NOT a "puppeteer", I am your "Father". Yeah, O.K.
Well, that certainly cleared things up, didn't it?"
Yes, actually. There is a massive difference between God using those methods and just simply forcing everyone to do what he wants. A child always has a choice to obey or disobey, even if the parent is super-manipulative and controlling, a puppet does not. Luckily, we have a Father in heaven that loves us, and rebukes and chastens us for our own good, that we should repent and return to Him so that He can return to us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
"Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts."
"If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith Jehovah, if thou wilt return unto me, and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight; then shalt thou not be removed;"
Hebrews 12
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye illegitimate, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
That last verse was really interesting concerning Esau. When was Esau rejected?
11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
