Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.
"Vs 4,5 speak of the plan God determined to set in motion knowing who would respond to His love for them. God having knowledge that we would believe determined to set this plan in motion."
This has already been refuted. First of all the text doesn't say God foreknew a future faith. That's adding to the text something that isn't there. Second of all, you first assume God foresaw a future faith in people but didn't foresee his future plan of salvation because according to you....He didn't come up with the plan until He saw future faith in people. So that argument fails in at least two ways. When you study the text, you clearly see that "foreknew" and "foreknowledge" does not mean, "have knowledge of" or "saw future events". Scripture interprets scripture. What we have in your view is that you are faced with the reality that scripture teaches election and you are now trying to explain it in light of your presuppositions of what you want to believe instead of letting the text speak for itself.
"In 6 The praise that other created beings had for God would not compare to the praise we have for God because we respond out of love according to our free wills."
This is contradictory. So, unbelievers praise God worse because they don't do it out of love according to their free will? Does that mean when unbelievers praise God it's not done by their free will? That's the logical conclusion to your comments here. Again you are just trying hard to read something into the text to support your believers, when in reality free will is not even the topic in verse 6 or any of the other verses. How do you justify adding free will to the context when it's not there?
"You see only those who respond to God love through our freel wills not as the angles who had no free will to accept or reject God can can recieve this redemption according to the richs of Gods Grace."
No, no we don't see. That's not what verse 7 says. You are adding again. Let the text speak.
"And the mystery of Gods will is that none should perish but have everlasting life but even more Gods will is for us to find His love as individuals."
Not true according to John 6:39..." 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." You are adding to the text what isn't there again.
"God is realising in us the fullness of His plan as we respond to His love for us and give him praise and glory from our hearts not like the angles created to do so."
God is realizing huh....as if He had something to learn?
"again simply speaking Gods will is for all to Come to repentence."
Actually since the verse speaks about believers obtaining an inheritance and then showing that God works all things according to His will, you would have a big problem. Not all are saved. Unless you are a universalist and then you have a whole other set of problems.
"Hope cannot be madeto do so but it is a responder to someone or something."
This is a weak argument. You are somehow trying to teach a free will because the verse speaks of them being the first to hope in Christ. Just let the text speak. If you read all of these verses in context and stop separating them to pull out some little nugget that isn't there, you clearly see God is the one doing all of the work here.
"Here the key word (believed) is a freewill word."
Believed is not at all a free will word. It is a word used to imply a saving faith, not a will. John 1:13 tells us it is not of the man's will.
". ( this is where we get the vessels made for honor and destruction) We being vessles God determined by His will according to His plan to save us according to His will."
So God didn't actually die to save all. Welcome to the belief in limited atonement. Usually it's the hardest one of the doctrines of grace to believe. Apparently for you it's the easiest.
Anyway, it's a nice little plan you set up, but it doesn't have much to do with what the scriptures teach. Furthermore, you didn't address the fact that the vessels were prepared for glory and prepared for destruction. In the context of those verses in Romans 9, God is the one who prepares them for such. If you take the view that God prepares some for glory and some for destruction then that eliminates the possibility of free will.
The out side link I shared is about Human Behavior associated with those that Believe in Free Will and those that dont...I hope yall actually read it and not just clicked on it and dismissed it because it is not a Biblical Opinion and is a Scientific Study concerning the Topic of discussion...This is a Discussion Forum...
Those that do Believe in Free Will are most often found to be of a Peaceful and Helpful Character and Spirit...
And those that do not Believe in Free are most often found to be of a Critical-Harsh and Unsettled Spirit...
This is a Fact...a Scientific Fact...Proven through Research and Study that can not be denied...
Anyone who has been on this Forum for some time Participating or not can Read and Discern the Differances betwix the Two types of Human Characterisitcs and Tendensies concerning the Subject matter...
I do Believe there is Biblical Scripture abound to support Free Will...If all a person does is Look for Scripture that supports there Own Belief of this they will no doubt find it...and to those that search the Scriptures to support Non-Free Will will find that also...
The point is...What are you Searching for and for what Purpose are you to use it for when you find it ???...
Be Blessed Yall and hava GOD HolySpirit Filled day...,.,...xo
I read the article with my feincee and agree with its findings. You know predistination is a biblical word but if viewed imporperly brings this sort of destructive mind set.
I find the beauty in knowing we have this relationship of Gods strong will for us and salvation that He provides us to respond out of our own willingness to Him. In a way that brings a intimacy with God.
No, preaching is an act of obedience and it the method in which God has chosen to get His message to the lost. It is not in vain. That's not even a good argument because God still tells us to preach the gospel to all, but he knew ahead of time who would and wouldn't come, so it's in vain still even in your view.
This is not about who's view sounds the best. This is about what the scriptures teach. Your argument is based on your desires.
I think God works through both as well. He predestinates, but I see no history of it meaning he chooses for us, or of him removing our will, or of him forcing his will on us, quite the opposite. If God forces our will, the bible ceases to make sense, 80% of the bible turns into God telling us to believe/repent when he makes us do it anyway. The implications of God forcing people into something they didn't want, or showing partiality and choosing not to save people even though all have sinned are huge. If we did that to people, we would be considered controlling, manipulative, self-serving, and evil.
To me, the glory that will be attributed to God because he works THROUGH our will is much, much more than if he simply just forces it. All those who question God will not have anything to say. He did everything, and provided everything. In our fallen state, God says we know both good and evil, and that even evil people can love and recognize good. I do not believe it's much of a theological quandry at all to believe that a sinner can recognize Jesus as his savior, and I do not see anywhere in the bible that faith is considered a work that earns salvation.
I'm think that the predestination belief should be more of a universalist belief. If God isn't willing that anyone should perish, and if he has the motives and ability to just force everyone to be saved, why are there still unbelievers? God's will isn't being done? God chose Israel to be his peculiar people, why did they fall so much? Why were they cut off? God doesn't keep his promises? I just think there's an element of free will/faith in the bible. Also, God is love, and love is not selfish. I think that a god who chooses some to be saved, and sends others to hell for eternity because he decided not to save them is a pretty conflicting view of God in the light of what Jesus came to show us.
:peace::peace:
P.S. This is just a sample. There are a lot more, I didn't want to bible bomb you guys.:laugh:
Mat 21:32
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Mar 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 5:36
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luk 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Jhn 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Jhn 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 11:15
And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
Jhn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:40
Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Jhn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:42
And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 11:48
If we let him thus alone, all will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Jhn 12:36
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Jhn 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jhn 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 13:19
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am.
Jhn 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jhn 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Act 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Act 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:26
To declare at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1Cr 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
2Cr 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1Ti 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.
1Ti 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
2Ti 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Hbr 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hbr 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Jo 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Jude...and I asked what the contribution was. Yes it's a discussion for biblical topics. If you are posting secular articles in order to show how the bible contrasts them, then that's understandable. However, just posting them and telling people to read....well I don't understand that. You give off the implication that you are in agreement with it.
Surely you have lived long enough to realize the danger is calling something true because it is a scientific study.
"And those that do not Believe in Free are most often found to be of a Critical-Harsh and Unsettled Spirit..."
Matter of fact comments like this don't belong here. Our standard is scripture, not some secular "scientific study"
"This is a Fact...a Scientific Fact...Proven through Research and Study that can not be denied..."
Let's look at your scientific facts. First of all, unless you paid to read the actual studies then you have no right to call it scientific fact. I tried to go read them and was asked to pay for them. Did you do this?
Second....look at this language and you tell me if these depict some type of scientific fact....
"Participants then read scenarios in which helping behaviours were explored, for example by asking about giving money to a homeless person......The results showed that, as Baumeister and colleagues predicted, people whose thoughts had been pushed more towards free will were more likely to be helpful than those whose thoughts were pushed towards determinism."
Do you really call that scientific? We have no idea what the questions were. Interesting that the researchers don't even call it scientific fact...."Laypersons' belief in free will MAY foster a sense of thoughtful reflection and willingness to exert energy, thereby promoting helpfulness and reducing aggression, and so disbelief in free will may make behavior more reliant on selfish, automatic impulses and therefore less socially desirable."....Furthermore, this is speaking of lay persons and does not take into account believers and the scriptures.
I wonder if those people claiming to read actually read. Maybe they would have seen this scientific fact...." Although the findings do not speak to the existence of free will, the current results suggest that disbelief in free will reduces helping and increases aggression."
Not only do they admit that this does not prove the existence of free will....they admit that their finding merely "suggest" the outcome which you call scientific fact.
"Baumeister and colleagues argue that the belief that behaviour is pre-determined encourages people to behave automatically, and often automatic behaviour is selfish."
There is a fundamental problem here. Scriptures teach that the natural man is selfish. You err in thinking that this article which doesn't take into account whether someone is a believer or not is somehow scientific. Scripture teaches us that believers will be different from nonbelievers. The study doesn't even appear to address this.
Did either of you ever consider that those who are not believer and still don't believe in free will are people who would like to not be held accountable for their actions? In other words, these may be bad people who have no intention of helping others. Do you know who these "participants" were? Do you know how they were chosen?
Anyway, I could go on like this and point out the issues with the rest of the article, but that would be a waste because neither of you actually care about truth. The fact that I even had to do this is sad. Please stop insulting my intelligence by posting mess like this and calling it scientific fact.
"Like I said I believe in the forenowledge and predetermination of God with freewill. How can anyone not believe in predestination? It is biblical.
But predestination alone is not biblical as well.
So freewill alone is not biblical and predestination alone is not biblical."
Well you didn't address anything I said, so if you'd like a response then you should first do that. I've shown how what you said was not reading the text for what it said, but rather adding to it. Can you show me where you come to the same belief without adding something that isn't there?
