Some say that faith before regeneration robs God of glory.
The belief goes this way: God ordained that men must by faith come to Him and He will regenerate them, but some say this robs God of glory. But if this idea claims it is God who has ordained it, how can it rob Him of glory? How can anything that God ordained rob Him of glory?
So, the next argument to that might be stated: "We know God did not ordain it because He would not ordain something that robbed Him of Glory".
Which raises the next question: Why assume it is robbery?
And if that assumption has no basis in the bible, then possibly it's a poor assumption. So, lacking any scripture saying that faith before regeneration robs God, what is there about having faith that makes us conclude that God is robbed? What does it take from God? What does faith add to Christ's sacrifice? Is there a logical or scriptural answer saying "faith robs God of glory" or "Faith earns salvation"?
Romans 4:20
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving GLORY to God.
How can a man have faith in God if he doesn't even know God exists? How does he believe the truth if God doesn't bring him to a knowledge of the truth? How does he have faith in the sacrifice of Jesus if Jesus never died? Faith is only something you can have in response to something God himself did already, so I don't see how it can be apart from God.
If we take it that far, then God is responsible for every sin. Here's a pretty interesting verse.
Isaiah 59:1-2
59 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
No...only if you are consistent with your view. But since you are not and the only reason you don't interpret faith as a work is because it doesn't fit what you want salvation to be...then you won't admit it can go that far.
The problem here is that one side has shown from scripture that God is the one that chooses. While the other side just says man chooses and cannot show it. The closest you have come is to say that scripture tells man to repent so man must have a free will.
How would you define faith? Can you define the process for regeneration and salvation under your belief system?
All these verses say that we must believe before we have life, or the promise, or the holy spirit, or salvation. How would you interpret these?
Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Galations 3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
1 Timothy
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Acts 16:31
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
You continue to ignore that we have never made the argument that someone doesn't have to believe....
"All these verses say that we must believe before we have life, or the promise, or the holy spirit, or salvation. How would you interpret these?"
Speaking of what comes before....And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region."
:bouncy:This verse doesn't say anything about them being forced into believing. Inability to believe is not implied in the verse, just that they were "appointed" or "ordained" or "disposed". This is support for predestination, and not regeneration before faith.
1 John 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
The verse clearly said that those who were appointed to eternal life at those who believed. You always talk about the plain reading of scripture and who has to change what to fit their belief system. Well....just look what you continue to do.
