Here's a new thread specifically devoted to both of you. Why don't you both exhaust yourselves here in this thread? Make as many snide remarks as you wish. "Out my identity" for everyone. Post up all the Scripture that you want to condemn and attack me. Feel free to bear false witness till your hearts are both content.
.... but please please please get that hatred out of your system once and for all so that we can all move on to something positive. :zzzz:
There are some here that would truly like to engage in dialogue about the Scriptures. That's very difficult to do with the constant contention that you both are now widely known for here. I am asking you to please take this thread and say all of the nasty things that you want about me. You have my full permission. Then, it's time to move on and move forward. Enough is enough from both of you. The horse is dead already.
"First, I have never accused, condemned, and belittled *everyone* here. So, you are factually inaccurate. If you are going to dialogue with me by accusing me of something that I have not done, we are going to be in for a long and unpleasant conversation. Why is it that my opponents here choose to be intellectually dishonest and misrepresent me straight out of the gate?"
Ok, I did not mean EVERYONE. I will choose my words more carefully.
"Mark - Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. I have given that definition many times. Clearly, many here lack knowledge. I have shown and proved this many times. So, if I say "so and so is ignorant" after showing proof of my assertion, then I am merely stating an objective fact. It is doubtful that that is a problem for anyone other than the "ignorant" person. By the way, I too am ignorant of many things. The same exact thing can be said for blasphemy. If somebody, asserts that their will is greater than God's or "free" from God's, they are a blasphemer. Many here are blasphemers. Again, this is objectively true. These are not ad hominem attacks as many of my opponents are guilty of against me. This is also not bearing FALSE witness as Teach and Jude are both consistently guilty of with me."
It is not objectively true that belief in free will is blasphemy. It is only subjectively true to your interpretation of the scripture. I think you're wrong and I have many bible verses to support my belief. That applies to may things. I'm open to discussion on those points, but I must stand for what I believe is the truth from scripture or I am not being a very good christian. That applies to the way most Christians deal with it. Also, if we want to get that technical about false witness, it only counts if someone is purposefully lying. Ignorance does not count as false witness. Misunderstanding something and speaking about it does not count. It would only be when someone is convinced of your position and then relates something else with the purpose of intentionally lying about that they know is true. If you ask Jude or Teach if they're purposefully lying about what you say, I'm pretty sure they'd say "no". If you want to continue to call them liars after that, then I would consider that to be more of a direct false witness than anything else you've mentioned.
"Mark, I am not bothered by persecution. I am bothered by the pathetic double standards that are applied here by both the admin and other forum users. It's very difficult to be constantly labeled w/ various "insults" by people who claim that I am "insulting" them. You must be able to see all of the blatant hypocrisy in that?"
Ok, then I would like you to consider your relationship and dealings concerning donna, because I have seen her do things that you would rebuke teach and jude for. I have never seen you correct anything she says or does. Perhaps you have privately, but if not, that is a double standard.
"Mark, history matters. The fact is that both Jude and Teach were the first to start the discord w/ me. Both are totally unremorseful and unrepentant. Both have engaged in vicious lies and bearing false witness against me. Both continue these childish antics currently. This is what needs to be curtailed for the benefit of all of the readers of the forum. "
I have seen them both apologize, I'm pretty sure there was a thread started where we all did. I've seen Jude step up and apologize at different times and if I can find it, I'm pretty sure she was just ignored. If you want, then list your grievances and ask for an apology and notify the parties involved. If you do not get an apology, then I'll believe your assessment, but currently, I've seen more humility and repentant attitudes from everyone else. Also, after repeated events, it becomes progressively more difficult to alter your opinion of those events. I'm sure you feel the same way since you're expressing your frustrations with the way things keep going.
"You are right that I have no respect for Teach or Jude. Why would I? On what Biblical basis? Just about everything Teach has ever argued has been totally antithetical to what the word of God teaches. I have shown that many times. I have no respect for that at all. Teach is the sum of her ideas so I am not going to "respect Teach but disrespect her ideas". The two are not separable concepts. Where does Scripture teach that I must *respect* anyone who repeatedly rejects the truth of Scripture? Again, on what basis should I *respect* either of these two women? I could name dozens of reasons why I believe I have a Biblical basis for not respecting either of these women but I am not here to have a "bash session" about either of them."
If you want to find something, you can respect their dedication to the scripture and to God. Whether or not they're right is almost moot. I believe God is their master, they have said so, and to Him alone they stand or fall. Whatever their imperfection or ignorance, it is covered by the Christ that they love. The only way to say otherwise is to judge their heart and their salvation, to call them liars and heretics, which is stepping into God's realm. If they are bearing fruits of a changed life, then they should be accepted and respected as fellow believers, and treated with gentleness and kindness and mercy, which we should be treating EVERYONE with, and believers more so. If you think they're damaging the faith by their beliefs, if you believe they are in error, then gently speak the truth in love. You will have ZERO success with your previous methods, or what you're apparently trying to do now. Whatever you see them as, they are not your enemies. You, as a christian, do not have "enemies".
"I have yet to hear one legitimate Biblical argument that proclaiming truth objectively is "unloving".
Well, that's not really the issue. Speaking the truth objectively is not unloving. Speaking the truth objectively without love is unloving. Speaking the objective truth with love is the biblical method. So the question is, are you actively portraying an attitude of love and understanding to the people you're objectively speaking the truth to? As you've mentioned, you don't take either of them very seriously or respect them or pretty much anything they do or believe. So. I'd say no, but you should ask them. I'm pretty sure they'd say no too. So to me, it seems that is the problem. You do not consider them to be followers of Christ. You consider them willingly ignorant, blatant sinners and false witnesses. False teachers, heretics, liars, etc. In my view, anyone that takes high offense to those accusations and reacts to them would only be affected and offended by them if they did believe they were trying to serve and follow God and that you were bearing false witness against them. Ask them if they serve God, ask them if they confess Jesus as the Son of God. If they can, then you are both servants of the same Master. Perhaps you have more experience and knowledge, but that all passes away. If their lives are dedicated to emulating Christ, whatever level they're on now does not matter, and you should be more interested in setting a good example for them and edifying them as opposed to tearing them down. When the Thief was hanging on the cross, Jesus did not give him a dissertation on the definitions of predestination and tell him he was going to hell if he didn't believe every point perfectly. Jesus simply recognized that the thief addressed Him as "Lord" and promised him paradise. If time had allowed, I'm sure Jesus would have taught him the truth as He did for His disciples, correcting him, rebuking him, changing him when the opportunity presented itself, but most importantly of all, the thief would know that Jesus truly loved him throughout the whole experience. Peter went through almost the entirety of Jesus's ministry on earth without understanding the truth. He made many errors that had to be corrected, and he was extremely ignorant and biased and proud. Even after Jesus's ascension, Peter was still committing sins that Paul had to chastise Peter for. But the main trend throughout all of that? Peter was following Jesus. Peter could listen to and accept Paul's reproving because Peter knew that Paul had the same love for Peter that Jesus did. They were fellow believers and they treated each other as such. So if Teach and Jude can confess Jesus as Lord, why doest thou judge your sister? Why dost thou set at nought thy sister?
Romans 14
"1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
"Mark, it seems patently dishonest to the point of absurdity to whitewash Jude's disparaging remarks as "humor" Let's at least admit that the comments she aims at me are not "jokes". I've posted one of her recent comments right here in this thread. I fail to see any humor in the comment, whatsoever. Further, if you want to dismiss all of Jude's insults as humor, then why not do that for the comments that I make as well. Why hold to a double standard? I've said this before, either we should all live with and accept a certain amount of terse banter here on the forums or we should all agree to live up to a rigid standard. The hypocrisy is ridiculous. "
Well, I seem to remember a time when you claimed "humor" to wash away your apparent disparaging remarks. With the same measure that you judge, you will be judged. I seem to remember a few times you even claimed that excuse with me, and I accepted your words. Ask Jude if she employs her humor in her discourse with you. Whether or not you find it funny is not an issue. I do not dismiss all her comments, and I know of one specific time where you asked for an apology and she gave it and you ignored it, at least to my knowledge. It's a forum where things get buried pretty quickly, so perhaps you just missed it.
"Mark, I do not ever recall stating that I, myself, am totally innocent of anything. In fact, I have offered unsolicited apologies to others here both publicly and privately several times. The weaker part of your argument here is that you are not comparing apples with apples. You are painting with a broad brush when you simply reduce the argument down to " we are all guilty" Clearly, you do not believe that you are guilty of the same offenses and to the same degree as I am, right? Well, I do not believe that I am guilty of the same offenses and to the same degree as Jude and Teach, either."
I'm not sure I see your point here. Obviously, you do not think you're as guilty as you think Jude and Teach are. You hold onto their offenses with a passion, literally keeping records of them. It doesn't matter what level of guilt or innocence someone has, everybody is guilty. Everybody deserves death. That should be enough to level the playing field. Apples and apples.
First off, let me say, "thank you" for the responses. I know that it's time consuming to offer detailed responses. The very fact that you are using your personal time to address any of this is evidence that you care about the issues at hand and seeing them resolved. I sincerely appreciate that and I would hope others do as well. I also care that these issues get resolved or I wouldn't being spending my time here, either.
I am also going to plainly state that it is clear to me by your actions that you care more about seeing these issues resolved than either Teach or Jude who for the most part are continuing to play games and avoid responsibility. This is 'part' of my issue with them.
I am going to try to keep the rest of this brief and on point. So, I am not going to debate doctrinal issues here at this time. I will also truncate your quotes to save space. I will quote the first part of your comments so that it's clear to you which paragraph I am responding to and then offer my comments.
"It is not objectively true that.........."
Liar - a person who tells lies. I have no trouble stating that these two women in question are liars. That is, they knowingly tell lies. In addition, I believe they have both been called out for this several times and have been given opportunities to correct the things that they have said. They never do. In addition, they are also both guilty of bearing false witness against me. Here is just one example from one of the more recent events on the forum. If you are interested in the truth, feel free to review the last 200 comments on this thread. You can start here: http://www.christiandatingforfree.com/cdff/CDFF_generic/forum/forum_details.php?topic_id=14447&forum_sub_cat_id=47&page=62
By the way, in among those 200 comments, you will see where I provide evidence of my first interaction with Teach where she offers her insulting opinion that I am a "legalist". Subsequent engagement proved that Teach does not know what a "legalist" actually is and that she failed to retract her insult.
"Ok, then I would like you to consider........."
Donna is not a part of this. I will not speak for Donna. For the record though, I have spoken with Donna privately about our own actions here. By the way Mark, in the past, I have tried to speak to Jude and Teach privately in the hope of establishing a better public discourse. I would happily speak to Jude and Teach privately again but they both know why that is not possible. Maybe, they can share that with you.
"I have seen them both apologize, I'm pretty sure there was a thread started where we all did......."
Who started that thread? Let me refresh your memory, ok? Mark, I have consistently listed my grievances at the time and in the threads where the offenses have occurred.
Is this really even debatable? I wish that I had a dollar for every time that I have corrected something that Teach said in error. Yet, I do not recall a single time in any of those threads where she has acknowledged her error, apologized for false statements, etc. etc.
"If you want to find something, you can respect....."
Let me start by offering a definition of respect: a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. I am going to keep this brief. Many claim that they believe in God. Yet, when they define "god" it is not the God of the Bible. Many claim to "follow Jesus". Yet, when they describe the "Jesus" that they follow it is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. So, should I show respect to a dedicated Muslim? How about a dedicated Mormon? The connection is that they are all worshiping a false god.
Mark, The bible wrongly interpreted ceases to be the word of God. Instead it becomes just another 'vain imagination' of men. Look at the Pharisees. Did Jesus show them 'respect'? Should I respect someone who is dedicated to their own vain imaginations? Many people bear fruits of a changed life. That may or may not have any connection whatsoever with Christianity or the Holy Spirit. Having said that, a mouth speaking lies continuously is surely not a fruit of a life changed by the Holy Spirit. If you would like some Biblical support for that, I would be happy to provide it.
"Well, that's not really the issue......"
If a blonde haired, blue eyed, woman came to me and declared herself my sister, she would have to provide some evidence to support her claim since nobody else in my family possesses those genetic characteristics. Likewise, a woman who would claim to be my sister in Christ should possess some of the same spiritual characteristics of the family of Christ. If they do not, they would have to provide some evidences somewhere else. In this case, I am still waiting on the evidence. Until then, I will reserve any judgment.
"Well, I seem to remember a time when you claimed "humor"........."
Yes, sometimes I say things in jest. I always try to make that clear and evident. (:laugh:) Context also provides support for whether or not something is said in jest. Here is an open question for both Jude and Teach, have either of you just been joking with me this whole time? I do NOT believe that is the case especially not with Teach. So, let them set the public record straight if they have intended all of their insults and false claims against me in jest then now is their chance to speak up and say so.
"I'm not sure I see your point here......"
Mark, it's not so much that I hold on to their offenses with a passion as it is that they are unremorseful and unrepentant for their offenses. More importantly, their offenses just continue and continue to come. The recent comments from the thread I posted above on "Marriage and Divorce" were the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Over eighteen months of on and off abuses from both Teach and Jude is enough.
By the way, I think the very fact that these two women address the some of the men here the way that they have is shameful. I would be happy to provide some Biblical support for that as well. That is still another 'part' of my issue with both of them especially Teach.
In closing, I now believe that this will never be rectified by either Jude or Teach. (another evidence for me that they are not of the same Spirit) However, as I have made clear, I think all of this is damaging to other members here who observe it. I would like to see that change in the future. As I have stated Mark, I am try to do my part to that end. Again, I appreciate you doing your part as well.
"Let me start by offering a definition of respect: a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. I am going to keep this brief. Many claim that they believe in God. Yet, when they define "god" it is not the God of the Bible. Many claim to "follow Jesus". Yet, when they describe the "Jesus" that they follow it is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. So, should I show respect to a dedicated Muslim? How about a dedicated Mormon? The connection is that they are all worshiping a false god."
Mormons and Muslims do not recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Jesus is not a false God. Jude and Teach worship the same Jesus. The one that died for you and me and them. What else are they required to believe before you accept them as believers? Do you think that Abraham and David and Solomon, etc were worshiping different gods?
"Mark, The bible wrongly interpreted ceases to be the word of God. Instead it becomes just another 'vain imagination' of men."
Yes, you're right, and we could have many discussions on this concept. Wait, I think we did already! I believe from the depths of my heart that you are dead wrong on many things. Does that mean I don't consider you a brother in Christ? Absolutely not. I see the fruits of Christ in your life, maybe I don't agree with your knowledge, but I see the fruit in the fact that you seek God's truth with all your heart. I can see that you are following the footsteps of Christ. In that, I can confirm that I believe you follow the same God as I do, perhaps God is just leading us toward Him on different paths because we're different individuals from different circumstances?
"Look at the Pharisees. Did Jesus show them 'respect'? Should I respect someone who is dedicated to their own vain imaginations? Many people bear fruits of a changed life. That may or may not have any connection whatsoever with Christianity or the Holy Spirit. Having said that, a mouth speaking lies continuously is surely not a fruit of a life changed by the Holy Spirit. If you would like some Biblical support for that, I would be happy to provide it. '"
Jesus did show them respect. There were pharisees that believed on Him. He went to their houses to eat. He sat in their synagogues to teach. He did not reject them when they came to him. He listened to their arguments, he answered their questions. Even when condemning them after they had repeatedly rejected Him, He showed great emotion and remorse that they would not turn to Him.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
I read through several pages of that 200 comment thread, and it was enough to gather what was going on. Unfortunately I will have to stand on the side of teach in that discussion. I see teach promoting forgiveness and mercy and grace, and you holding onto the letter of the law. Now, I technically agree with BOTH of you. The law is hugely important, and coming from an 7th Day Adventist, we could have a long talk about that, but the law does not save us or make us clean.
"Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live."
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
Now, concerning the accusations in question. Just by reading the posts and not assuming anything, it just looks like you're getting worked up into a frenzy on that thread, which I've see you do before. Not only do you seem to lose control, but you resort to the same tactics you condemn. I see patience, gentleness, and self control in Teach's responses, and I see little to none in yours. That being said, looking at it from your perspective, I can see why you'd be frustrated, but that doesn't change much in my conclusion. Now, I do not approve of everything Teach said in that thread, but that is also not the point.
As to the topic there, David committed adultery and was forgiven and did not remain chaste. He had several wives, as did many other biblical figures. If we're forgiven our debt is erased unless we turn around and condemn someone else for the same sin we have committed. I can almost guarantee that you have committed fornication or adultery at some point in your life, I know I have many times(even though I've never married or had intercourse). The difference between me/you and a unrepentant sexually immoral person is that I admit I'm wrong, I admit I'm a sinner, I'm deeply sorry for my sins, and my heart's desire is to never commit those actions again. That is a great deal different than someone who thinks they have license to continue to sin openly and willingly and freely while "under grace". Those kind are to be cast out of the fellowship of believers. So, if someone was divorced because of physical abuse and was remarried, I would consider that out of range of my judgment. If someone gets divorced and remarried because they don't like the way someone snores at night, I would be able to judge that immediately. In the same way, if someone kills someone in self-defense or in the defense of another, I would not be able to judge that action. If someone kills someone because of the way they snore at night, I would be able to judge that immediately.
Also, you can continue to claim persecution, but there is a pretty obvious reason for why you keep getting banned over and over, and it's not that the admins are heretics. You have a control problem, a character problem, or at the very least, a problem with how you write your responses. And for the record, I think the OP of that thread should have been banned as well. I think Singer and Teach were the only two main contributors that were able to remain mostly civil.
And again, the truth seems to be lost on you. That saddens me but I guess it shouldn't come as a complete shock b/c this has happened before between you and I whenever I have attempted civil dialogue with you.
So Mark, Here's what I have to say to you:
"MARK, or whoever you are, you have ZERO credibility as you have been caught in lies in your identity which makes one question most everything you write other than pure Scripture....and I would look every verse up that you cite for accuracy."
That's fine, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that "lie/insult"(in your opinion) was extremely tame compared to the dramatic stuff you were dropping. Pretend I was using a "scale". You have my permission to use it too. Go back through and put all the different times you called Teach a liar/false witness/unbeliever/etc on one side, and do the same for the things she said about you. Maybe you'll get a different result, I don't know. Also, please notice that it is you who is choosing to cease the civil discussion. "In the past" it has been the same as well. You're the one who always wants to stop the conversations and shut up the opposing voices. When you are ready to address your problems in addition to everyone else's, perhaps then the conversation can continue. Feel free to point out mine as well, but if you want me to just sit in your corner and tell you you're doing everything right, I will not do it. Nobody that really cares about you would. I'm of the opinion that you need to take a cold hard look at JUST YOU. Not Teach. Not Jude. Compare yourself with Christ, and you may even need to go back and understand Him better as well. Don't give yourself any external excuses. The admins are not out to get you. No one is responsible for your actions and reactions except for you. In my opinion, while Teach isn't perfect, you are NOT better than her in your portrayal of Christ in your life. I do not know you personally, so it's not very accurate, but that is how you're coming across on the internet, at least from my observation.
"MARK, or whoever you are, you have ZERO credibility as you have been caught in lies in your identity which makes one question most everything you write other than pure Scripture....and I would look every verse up that you cite for accuracy."
"Also, you can continue to claim persecution, but there is a pretty obvious reason for why you keep getting banned over and over, and it's not that the admins are heretics. "
"The admins are not out to get you. No one is responsible for your actions and reactions except for you."
Yeah, and nobody was "out to get" Paul, either. He merely suffered the consequences of preaching and teaching the truth. As did all of the other apostles and many others throughout history.
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
Let the admin come here and engage me in a public debate over their "ban" policy. I am more than willing and ready to have that public dialogue as well. I've written to them several times and NEVER had a response.
Perhaps it's not up for discussion. I've written them a couple times about site functions and forum issues, and never gotten a response, but I have written them for basic questions and advice and I have gotten responses. I assume that means that they are flooded with emails about "Site suggestions" and have no policy/privileges to do anything about it themselves. Site admins are not often in charge of changing policy or writing/changing code. They are simply moderators. Anyway, I feel your pain on that issue, but it's not grounds to assume they're singling you out for persecution, and relating your experiences here to Paul's suffering is a dramatic, eh? Paul was also very kind and considerate and shrewed when it came to dealing with authorities and people who hated/distrusted him. In his letters to the churches, he very often reminded them of his feelings toward them while giving them correction. If you adopted Paul's methods of speaking to people, you would have very little issue here. As it stands, and I'm sure I've related this before, you're more like "pre-Paul" than "post-Saul". More like a zealous hunter than a harmless servant.
"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
Adopt that attitude, and I will no longer have anything to criticize you about. That great evangelist! I can feel his love for his fellow man in that short discourse. His desire for spreading God's word is so that he can partake of Christ's life with others. His passion to win souls for Christ is amazing, and his motives are unquestionably pure. In that discourse, I can safely assume that he would labor his whole life just to bring only me to Christ, because he has that same love that Christ does.
You do realize that your judgment of me is highly subjective. Right? Prove that I am not like Paul or any other persecuted follower of Christ from history. You will not be able to do so.
I bear too many marks.
By the way Mark, I have adopted all of my ideas from Scripture and history. It's you and those like you who cannot see what is plainly written on the pages of both the Bible and history who seem to think that the "truth spoken in love" does not bring offense. It always does. Those who do it continuously always have "issues" with those that oppose it. If, you ever find the truth and begin to boldly proclaim it ( and I pray that you do), only then will you understand the cross that goes with it.
Your self-assessment in comparing yourself to Paul is just as subjective, and if the only persecution you've suffered on this site is when you were banned or insulted, then I don't think that is even close to comparable. I can tell from reading Paul's letters that he is a great man who suffered a great deal, yet would put his life on the line for my soul. I can't say that I get the same impression from your posts, although I'm aware that portraying things through text is difficult sometimes.
