There are some who believe it was decided who would be saved, even before the foundation of the world and "all" individuals have no choice in the matter.
Scripture clearly teaches the 'Church' has had a predetermined destination before the foundation of the world, �however I see no clear teaching that every individual is only chosen one and the same way before the foundation of the world - no exceptions.
God is Sovereign; He chooses and saves whomever, however and whenever He pleases. While mans own righteousness can never save him, there are plenty examples in Scripture where the actions of a person has received�the attention of God.�
A Truly Sovereign God is Not bound by the "Tulip Rulebook" He bound only by His own nature.
Dljrn04, you have made 4 assumptions leading to 5th
1) The only way The 'Father will draw a person' is He must first make regenerate.
*fail ~ many are called few are chosen�
2) You assume it is impossible for God to draw a man dead in sin and trespass.
*fail ~ God is Sovereign and not limited by the tulip handbook. It was while we were dead in sin Christ died for us.
3) Assuming I think God is a groveling bellhop begging for love.
*fail ~ this is wrong on so many many levels I'm not sure where to begin. This is typical Reformed verbiage parroted against those who believe different. It is God who has come and sought out men at the horrific cost of a tortured and murdered Son. I take great offense at likening the great efforts and sacrifice of God to the groveling actions of a bellhop. Christ humbled himself and became a man for our sake. You make fun of it at your own expense.
4) You assume we have NO part in salvation
*fail ~ even though it is impossible for man to save himself, it would take to many pages to post the times in Scripture where God calls us to participate in the salvation process and the consequences of refusing:
Luke 13:34
O�Jerusalem,�Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
You confuse commands with ability to carry out command. Over and over again scripture teaches that fallen man does not have the ability because he will act according to His nature. It's not until His nature is changed(something that man cannot do) that the command is carried out. Saying that because the command is there scripture is also teaching ability is adding to these verses something that isn't there. Until you admit that, then the discussion cannot move forward. You are trying to fit the verses into your closed system instead of letting them say only what they say.
Dljrn04, you have made 4 assumptions leading to 5th
1) The only way The 'Father will draw a person' is He must first make regenerate.
*fail ~ many are called few are chosen
2) You assume it is impossible for God to draw a man dead in sin and trespass.
*fail ~ God is Sovereign and not limited by the tulip handbook. It was while we were dead in sin Christ died for us.
3) Assuming I think God is a groveling bellhop begging for love.
*fail ~ this is wrong on so many many levels I'm not sure where to begin. This is typical Reformed verbiage parroted against those who believe different. It is God who has come and sought out men at the horrific cost of a tortured and murdered Son. I take great offense at likening the great efforts and sacrifice of God to the groveling actions of a bellhop. Christ humbled himself and became a man for our sake. You make fun of it at your own expense.
4) You assume we have NO part in salvation
*fail ~ even though it is impossible for man to save himself, it would take to many pages to post the times in Scripture where God calls us to participate in the salvation process and the consequences of refusing:
***In response to your assumptions, and vain imaginings.
1.) You assume i believe your god draws and regenerates. I believe God chose, drew, and saves those whom he will.
2.) a dead man can not save himself. he must be saved by God alone, not your cosmic bellhop, who you need to assist with your salvation, but the Almighty, infallible God of the bible, who calls his sheep and they hear and follow his voice.
3.) I make fun of no one, i feel sorry for those who do not know the love, joy, peace, and enjoyment in serving my Father in heaven.
4.) we have NO part in salvation. We who are God's belong to God and have a responsibility to follow our Fathers commands through the grace he provides us to live a godly upright life, so that our life would reflect our God that men may also glorify my Father who is in heaven.
So you have blacked out the scripture to put on the whole armor of God to fight the good fight, and you have probably blackened out the scripture that calls us to be holy as he is holy. The bible is not a buffet you can not pick and choose what YOU want to believe.
"You confuse commands with ability to carry out command. Over and over again scripture teaches that fallen man does not have the ability because he will act according to His nature. It's not until His nature is changed(something that man cannot do) that the command is carried out. Saying that because the command is there scripture is also teaching ability is adding to these verses something that isn't there. Until you admit that, then the discussion cannot move forward. You are trying to fit the verses into your closed system instead of letting them say only what they say."
I would say the same thing to you. I have biblical examples of men and women obeying God. Peter was a disciple of Christ for almost three years before he was converted, after baptism, after working miracles.
"But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Peter was following and obeying and loving Jesus before conversion. There are many more examples. I have to point out that you appear to be begging the question and assuming that the bible supports your view already. I would like to see a verse where it says a man cannot believe before regeneration, or that regeneration precedes faith. Simply saying the ability isn't there is also adding something to the bible that isn't there. God calls people to look and live, and they do. They would not look if God did not give his law or his son or his love for them to look at, but those are the things God calls us to have faith toward in the first place. So it is still all of God, and great faith gives him great glory.
"You do realize that all of scripture is a testament to man's need of salvation and their total inability to attain it right?"
Even with all the faith in the world, salvation is only available from God through his grace/mercy. Absolutely NO amount of faith can reach into heaven and wrest salvation out of God's hands. No faith can cause God to send his son to die. I don't see how this belief conflicts with what you're saying. I believe exactly what you said.
"guess having it all worked out like that kinda gives you a feeling of security."
