Author	Thread: The 'Spock' Gospel
Admin	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 19 Dec, 2012 06:11 AM Why do people think for something to be true it has to be logical? I think the 5 point Calvinist is the worst offender and a good example of what I'm speaking of. We are all individuals and God treats us accordingly. We are creations of God who can do what he pleases with what he created; answering to no one and judged by no one. The Gospel is not about logic it is about relationship and relationships vary from person to person; God is unchanging however we are not, nor are we all the same. Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 06:11 PM Graceundeserved, I am not dodging the issue, playing games or trying to appear smart. The logic of Calvinism goes beyond Scripture: Scripture = man is dead in his sins Calvinism = therefore man is so dead he can't not even look up when God calls - Scripture = man is not elected on the merit of his own righteousness Calvinism = therefore man is unconditionally elected - Scripture = Christ died to save�the elect Calvinism = therefore Christ did not die for the sin of the whole world - Irresistible grace and the Perserverence of the Saints only work within the above closed system when coupled with the "Sovereignty"�of God. - I submit to you the God of Calvinism is really not all that Sovereign; not only can he not make its voice heard by a dead man,�He is bound by unconditional election and cannot allow people a choice in salvation. � Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 07:36 PM You seem to have bad understanding of what the 5 points of Calvinism is. Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 07:58 PM "You seem to have bad understanding of what the 5 points of Calvinism is." ______________ I think I have a pretty good grasp of it. Where I may be suspect is where Calvinism redefines words, that is where I may be pushing the envelope according to you. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 08:33 PM "Yea He died to save all the believers. That's the reformed view." I said some stuff after that. I'm saying that Jesus suffered and died for the sins of the whole world, but only those who believe will be saved. There is a major difference in there, and because I believe in free will, I believe all men everywhere have the opportunity to repent and be saved. He died to save the believers, but he also died to take away the sins of the whole world. His sacrifice was great enough to be applied to every human if they look to him. And my point was that many 4-point Calvinists believe that Jesus died for every sinner in the world, but only regenerated those he planned to save before the foundation of the world, and the reason 4-point Calvinists exist, including John Calvin himself, is because there is too much biblical evidence that Jesus died for the sins of every man that fell under the power of sin. 1 Timothy 2 King James Version 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 4 King James Version 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. ------------- 1. If Christ died for those who go to hell, what benefit have they from His death? Answer: "We may as well ask, What good did the bitten Israelites get from the brazen serpent to which they refused to look? None, of course, but God got the glory of being a God generous enough to provide for them." 2. If satisfaction has been made for all, how can any go to hell? Answer: "Though God has provided atonement for all, He has also stipulated that none get the good of it, except through repentance and faith. Deliverance from doom was not contingent on the atonement itself but on the reception of it. Men can starve in the presence of a free feast, if they refuse to partake of it." 3. Why would God have Christ die for those whom He, in His omniscience, knew would never receive His provision? Answer: "Why did God richly endow the angels who subsequently sinned, when He knew they would not use His gifts to their everlasting good? Why did He bestow valuable gifts on our first parents, to be employed for their and our advantage, when He knew they would not so employ them? Why did He send Noah to preach to people He knew would not receive His message? And why did He send the prophets to Israel, when He knew they would continue in their apostasy? There is such a thing as the divine benevolence." http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html ************* John Calvin Bible Commentary - 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the Lord is not slack, or, delays not. He checks extreme and unreasonable haste by another reason, that is, that the Lord defers his coming that he might invite all mankind to repentance. And as to the duration of the whole world, we must think exactly the same as of the life of every individual; for God by prolonging time to each, sustains him that he may repent. In the like manner he does not hasten the end of the world, in order to give to all time to repent. This is a very necessary admonition, so that we may learn to employ time aright, as we shall otherwise suffer a just punishment for our idleness. Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way. But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 09:53 PM DontHitThatMark, I am with you on this; while I agree with the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' I disagree the unfortunate terminology used to (perhaps) create a "acronym" (TULIP). � Christ paid for the sins of the WHOLE world, if certain individuals reject His payment on their behalf and choose to pay with their own lives then how does this "Limit" the value of Atonement?� It doesn't. Even if one was to say it was limited only to those who believe the value still exists for those who reject it, so how is the Atonement of Christ "Limited" to just a few??? Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 11:24 PM Scripture = man is dead in his sins Calvinism = therefore man is so dead he can't not even look up when God calls ------------ This right here proves that you do not know Calvinism. The follow is what a Calvinist would have said. Calvinism = therefore man is so dead he can only[can't not even] look up when God calls Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 02:55 AM What we have here is Sparrow claiming the Calvinist goest beyond scripture and him failing to show it. We also have him being hypocritical when he claims the Calvinist used closed logic...whatever that is. I'm guessing we need to define logic before we move forward. Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 10:01 AM Graceundeserved:�"What we have here is Sparrow claiming the Calvinist goest beyond scripture and him failing to show it." _____________________ Actually I have shown it repeatedly on this thread, however I will try to help you see it: Let's make this simple by sticking to one point; #1 Total Depravity: Scripture clearly teaches; man is dead in sin. Calvinism interpretation of Scripture�teaches; man is so dead that he cannot even respond to the Gospel. Therefore as logic dictates he must first be made alive so that he may choose God. This is done by being born again through the filling of the Holy Spirit. Ummm, excuse me? Where is that in Scripture??? It is not even good logic: Basically saying a person must be born again BEFORE they can respond to God's invitation to be born again. This goes *Beyond Scripture* Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 11:08 AM "Scripture = man is dead in his sins Calvinism = therefore man is so dead he can't not even look up when God calls ------------ This right here proves that you do not know Calvinism. The follow is what a Calvinist would have said. Calvinism = therefore man is so dead he can only[can't not even] look up when God calls " :bouncy:To me, that sounds like two sides of the same coin, but: "For many are called, but few are chosen" How would you explain that? :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	The 'Spock' Gospel Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 01:06 PM To me, that sounds like two sides of the same coin, but: "For many are called, but few are chosen" How would you explain that? _____________________ The answer is easy if one *really* accepts the Sovereignty of God: God can choose a individual before the foundation of the world for His own purposes or He can choose him after, God can call anyone whenever He wishes and however He wishes. God can choose to leave the choice to the individual or not. The problem people are having with my posts is it doesn't fit their preconceived paradigm of God limited by their own judgement of 'what is fair'. Unbeknownst to them they are actually sitting in judgement of God and denying His Sovereignty. Imho, a foolish thing to do. Post Reply

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