1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.�
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5�I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.�
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.�
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.�
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.�
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;�
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,�
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.�
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;�
18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.�
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,�
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:�
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.�
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,�
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
And by the way, I know that you all do not think the same over every point, however, you can and do all come into strong agreement against those with whom you disagree (i.e. Calvinists, Reformed, etc.). You share a humanistic love for your "friends" I've seen what happens when anyone disagree with the group and it's groupthink.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Matt. 5
"Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences."
"Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates their own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of their opponents (the "outgroup")."
Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
"OK Mark, I will take the bait since you make the same reference each time. Do you believe that I am Saul - persecuting all the "real" Christians b/c I haven't found Jesus yet? Yes or No?"
No, I do not. I do believe you are a "real" christian, but I also believe you are exhibiting some of the same attitudes and stubbornness that Saul had, or even Peter for that matter, and I can see how it would be very easy for those in your belief system to start persecuting fellow followers if they take their beliefs to the extreme. It happened in the early church and during the reformation, there is no reason why it wouldn't happen again, in fact, the bible prophesies about it.
I see nothing wrong with "groupthink" in the image of Jesus. God calls the body of believers to be in conformity and harmony, accepting those weak in the faith and not vainly disputing doctrines of men.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
I believe history supports the fact that the majority always persecute the minority. I am in an extreme minority. So, I have no idea why you believe that you and those who think similarly are not the ones who do the persecuting. From my vantage point, they are the persecutors.
I do not concur that ELECTION, PREDESTINATION, SALVATION, ATONEMENT, SOVEREIGNTY, REPROBATION, and so on are "doctrines of men". Overwhelmingly and almost exclusively, these are the doctrines that have been "disputed" here. Do you agree or disagree with that?
Well, this has been an interesting thread that started with just the posting of a small book of the NT.
As for persecution, the posts on the various threads speak for themselves, just like God's Word speaks for itself.
The Bible says we reap what we sow...and we should do unto others as we would have others do unto us (paraphrases).
Maybe if we all tried to treat others how we would like to be treated we could have adult conversations/discussions. Of course, there could be some who like to be treated with disrespect and ridicule...
"Mark, I believe history supports the fact that the majority always persecute the minority. I am in an extreme minority. So, I have no idea why you believe that you and those who think similarly are not the ones who do the persecuting. From my vantage point, they are the persecutors."
:bouncy:I'd agree with that, and if you're in the extreme minority, I must not exist.:goofball:
Reformed = 56 million
Adventist = 17 million
"I do not concur that ELECTION, PREDESTINATION, SALVATION, ATONEMENT, SOVEREIGNTY, REPROBATION, and so on are "doctrines of men". Overwhelmingly and almost exclusively, these are the doctrines that have been "disputed" here. Do you agree or disagree with that?"
:bouncy:All of those are biblical doctrines, but it's the individual interpretations that make them doctrines of men, and personally, I don't view them as necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross accepted Jesus right before he died and I presume that he knew nothing about the various views on predestination, etc, he simply confessed that Jesus was Lord. I believe in predestination as a biblical doctrine, I just interpret it differently, and while I think I'm right and you're wrong, I don't consider it even close to something I would question your heart or salvation over. If you started saying that Christ sinned or that we can earn salvation thru works, I would immediately be concerned, but as it stands, I'm much more concerned about the way you and Donna appear(I say "appear" because it's really difficult to interpret text in the way the writer meant it and you have to give them every benefit of the doubt) to treat others on the forum, and I believe that it's because of what you think about "election" and/or what God's character is like. Now, that being said, I think you ARE following God, but I just think your priorities are mixed up a bit, I think you need to focus more on fruits. I work with a Calvinist, and he's literally like a big brother in Christ to me even though we disagree on some points. He can see that I'm a sincere transformed christian, saved by grace through faith and following Christ, and I can see it in him as well. There's some in his church that won't even talk to me because they consider me an idolater, where "Dave" and myself can look at each other and say: "We're different ages, different backgrounds, different beliefs. Even though we might be on different places on the path, we are on the same path to the same destination", and we've both grown a lot from constant discussion together. I believe that's called "edifying the church", which is what I'd like this forum to be about, for us to simply find out what scripture says, not what we think scripture says. And if we could do that without presuming to know what each person sincerely believes in their heart, that would be great. As a little testimony, I know that I have held erroneous beliefs in the past, and when God opened my understanding when He knew I was ready, I repented and changed my beliefs. The erroneous beliefs did not make me lost. I believe God is working like that with everyone, and instead of trying to take over His job, we should be assistants in bringing the word to people.
2 Timothy 2
20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Romans 14:5-12
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Now, I'm not promoting "relativism" or "humanism" with that verse, and neither was Paul, but he IS saying that "motives" are more important than "knowledge", and "fruit" is more important than "gifts".
Just as an aside, one of my best friends and a person that I have the utmost respect and regard for is a "Charismatic/Pentecostal" believer. His personal walk is unlike any other man's that I have ever witnessed. Having said that, I believe that the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement is grossly heretical. In the instance of this friendship, we really don't discuss "the deeper things" of God (of which, I have no doubt there would be violent disagreement). I know this man by his fruits and I knew him immediately in my spirit as my brother when we met almost 15 years ago.
By contrast, I find many of the reformed faith (Calvinist) to be sorely lacking in fruit and very hard to relate with on any level. I would also say in general terms that I find many Calvinists to be very argumentative to the point of splitting hairs over a jot or a tittle and be willing to renounce the other person's faith over that jot. I've left many a Calvinist group over this type of behavior.
Now, my personal opinion (and that's all that it is) is that God is currently raising up tremendous persecution against Christianity from all sides -- humanism in all of it's forms, Islam, etc. This will unite those of the "true faith" delivered once and for all to the saints and purge out all of the pretenders.
"Now, my personal opinion (and that's all that it is) is that God is currently raising up tremendous persecution against Christianity from all sides -- humanism in all of it's forms, Islam, etc. This will unite those of the "true faith" delivered once and for all to the saints and purge out all of the pretenders."
Definitely, but I believe that in the last days, it's so-called "Christians" that will be persecuting the minority. My personal opinion is that Christianity will undergo a huge revival, perhaps in retaliation to persecution, and will suppress or assimilate other forms of religion, much like in the dark ages and during the crusades. It will be a golden age for "Christianity", there'll probably be an effort to take back the temple mount, etc, maybe even modern crusades against various peoples and religions that don't go along with it. I know a few Masonic members who would like that to happen very much. But the result will probably be that "Christianity" will be hardly recognizable.
"This will unite those of the "true faith" delivered once and for all to the saints and purge out all of the pretenders."
Persecution will definitely unite all true believers under one banner though, I absolutely believe that.
"There is another and more important question that should engage the attention of the churches of today. The apostle Paul declares that "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." 2 Timothy 3:12. Why is it, then, that persecution seems in a great degree to slumber? The only reason is that the church has conformed to the world's standard and therefore awakens no opposition. The religion which is current in our day is not of the pure and holy character that marked the Christian faith in the days of Christ and His apostles. It is only because of the spirit of compromise with sin, because the great truths of the word of God are so indifferently regarded, because there is so little vital godliness in the church, that Christianity is apparently so popular with the world. Let there be a revival of the faith and power of the early church, and the spirit of persecution will be revived, and the fires of persecution will be rekindled."
