To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated.
I believe I've given sufficient evidence that God is the one who chooses and that He does not choose all. We know this because of chapters like Romans 9 as well as because we know that not all will be saved....and to remain consistent with some of your interpretations, you would have to be a universalist.
The Jews were "destroyed" and the "Gentiles" were glorified. Not every Jew will be saved, even though they were "chosen", and not every Gentile will be saved, they must have the righteousness of faith. I'm not a universalist because I believe God created us with free will, and he will only save those that believe/have faith/acknowledge the truth. It will be a comparatively small number to those that are lost.
Here's another parallel to Romans 9. Notice "repent". Notice God is removing his protection or punishment depending on the response of the "kingdom", and not free will.
Jeremiah 18
King James Version (KJV)
18 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
You - "Not every Jew will be saved, even though they were "chosen", and not every Gentile will be saved, they must have the righteousness of faith."
Me - Not all Israel is Israel..."6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but �Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.� 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
You - "The Jews were "destroyed" and the "Gentiles" were glorified."
Me - The called ones(which was how scripture often defines believers are the ones who were chosen...Jews and Greeks..."23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory� 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
You - I'm not a universalist because I believe God created us with free will
Me - I've already touched on the topic of free will. I get that you say you believe God gives us one, but that just isn't supported by scripture. Who did the choosing here?..."15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;"
Now, you may try to use the verse which says many are called but few are chosen, but I would caution you from quoting a different author in a different context. Romans 8:29-30 teach that all who are called are saved, so it cannot be the same called that Matthew is speaking about. I think a more consistent reading is that meaning are called by the the preaching of the gospel, the general call that goes out to every man...."29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."....These scriptures teach that everyone who is called of God is saved. Not only that, we see that God's choosing was before the foundation of the world. Again believers in scripture are referred to as the called ones.
You say you aren't a universalist and I don't believe you believe in universalism. However, as I have already shown, if you are going to be consistent with your interpretation of scripture, then you do indeed come out with universalism. You never disputed where I've shown this except to say that you aren't a universalist. That's not the point though.
Your parallel from Jeremiah only shows God telling them He will not destroy them if they repent. It never says that they were capable of doing so. I have given sufficient scriptures to show that man is incapable and that God chooses...also that all whom He chooses will indeed be saved.
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
:bouncy:And 11.
Romans 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Revelation 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, �Come!� And let him who hears say, �Come!� And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
2 Peter 2:1
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, *even denying the Lord that bought them*, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 3
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
GUD: You say you aren't a universalist and I don't believe you believe in universalism. However, as I have already shown, if you are going to be consistent with your interpretation of scripture, then you do indeed come out with universalism. You never disputed where I've shown this except to say that you aren't a universalist. That's not the point though.
:bouncy:I don't believe you have shown. I feel like I'm being pretty consistent. A universalist believes that all will be saved, right?I believe that only those who believe will be saved, like the scripture says in hundreds of places, but that doesn't mean that Jesus didn't offer salvation to every man, like I also believe the scripture says,"For there is no partiality with God." So you could say I believe in universal atonement, but not universal salvation. It may only appear inconsistent because our beliefs are so different.
GUD: Your parallel from Jeremiah only shows God telling them He will not destroy them if they repent. It never says that they were capable of doing so. I have given sufficient scriptures to show that man is incapable and that God chooses...also that all whom He chooses will indeed be saved.
:bouncy::goofball:Well, it never says he will give them ice cream if they do repent either, that's not a great argument. God choose Israel, and not all Israel will be saved.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
Here's some verses I found during some study today that seem to be relevant to our discussion.
Isaiah 56:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL.
Proverbs 1
24But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,
25since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,
26I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you�
27when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
28�Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.
29Since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the Lord,
30since they would not accept my advice
and spurned my rebuke,
31they will eat the fruit of their ways
and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
32For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,
and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33but whoever listens to me will live in safety
and be at ease, without fear of harm.�
Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Titus 1:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
Matthew 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
GUD: Your parallel from Jeremiah only shows God telling them He will not destroy them if they repent. It never says that they were capable of doing so.
:bouncy:Jonah 3
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
