Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.
"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
Howdy Steve!! I agree with both those verses. There's a verse that tells us how many God gave Jesus, and it uses that "believe" word. Jesus was also lifted up, and he will draw all men to him that believe. "Look and live".
"The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.�
:bouncy:And a little more context to what you posted.
"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
It's God will that everyone that seeth the Son, should have everlasting life, only those that believe. There is always an element of faith. And where I say that God foreknew who would believe and predestined them, you'll probably say, no, they were predestined, God gave them life and then they believed, but I just don't see that in the bible. It's always "believed" first.
"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing ye might have life through his name."
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
dljrn04: "John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."
:bouncy: I do not believe this is concerning these individuals salvation per se, as much as their ordination for a specific purpose as apostles.
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
:bouncy:God "gave" Judas to Jesus, Jesus chose Judas, does that mean that Jesus lost one of the chosen?
GUD, I've tried to answer as many verses as you have, and just remember, they're only "refuted" in your interpretation. You haven't refuted anything just because you say you have. You have yet to answer these verses, you said it doesn't refute anything you said, but I'd say it does.
Jeremiah 18
King James Version (KJV)
18 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
GUD: "Your parallel from Jeremiah only shows God telling them He will not destroy them if they repent. It never says that they were capable of doing so. I have given sufficient scriptures to show that man is incapable and that God chooses...also that all whom He chooses will indeed be saved."
:bouncy:But there is a specific biblical example of a city that did repent. Even a non-Israelite one that was not literally given the chance to repent in the condemnation that was prophesied against them. "He cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." I think it refutes what you said.
Jonah 3
5 So the people of Nineveh **believed God**, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them ... 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
GUD: "Jonah 3 does not refute anything I've posted."
:bouncy:And there's that pesky "believed" word again:winksmile:.
Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
GUD: "You read scripture in light of your presuppositions instead of letting the text speak for itself."
:bouncy:Are you sure? Because I try to let the text speak for itself and you tell me it doesn't mean what it says:winksmile:.
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
:bouncy:Sounds like Jesus is the savior of the whole world to me. I would never guess otherwise by reading the plain text and the many texts that support it.
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
And I think there is a difference between "believing" and "choosing". I might not believe in gravity until I fall down, but then believing is only a choice if I choose NOT to believe in it. So when God brings us to a knowledge of the truth that Jesus died for our sins, it's only really a choice if we reject him.
Hebrews 11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Go look back at the other thread and look as well at LTM in this thread. You post verse and claim they mean something. I come back and show why they don't and show how you take many of them out of context and I get no response to them. You just continue posting verses that have already been refuted. As far as adding. You guys keep saying verses mean things that they never say and you then claim to be letting the text speak for itself. What does this text say? "You did not choose me. I chose you".
You asked for examples from scripture in the other thread. I gave numerous examples of man's inability to choose as well as showing God election and you pretty much ignored them all and continued to post unrelated scriptures. Until you can rightly handle the verses that have already been provided, we cannot really progress any farther. Until you can show in context how the verses don't mean what they clearly say, then the discussion cannot go anywhere. If you were honest, you and LTM both want salvation to be available to all so you interpret scripture in light of that, hanging on by a thread to some verses that seemingly imply man chooses, but ignore when it is shown that man chooses things according to his own nature....having been shown that natural man will not choose God.
" So when God brings us to a knowledge of the truth that Jesus died for our sins, it's only really a choice if we reject him."
And so what happens to those that God never brings to this point? Believing and choosing are not different. I've already explained that saving faith is not to be understand as "having knowledge of". Satan believes, but doesn't have saving faith. This is what I'm talking about. You ignore my previous refutations and continue posting the same things.
