Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.
Some of them I don't try to explain because I don't want to place my interpretation on the verse. I know very well that we see things differently, and it affects every single interpretation of scripture. So I would take a verse that says "I chose you, you did not choose me" and say, "he was talking to his disciples, he chose them specifically and ordained them to be his disciples, it doesn't mean it applies to every single person's individual will or salvation". Even though I think it is the right interpretation, it's not a good argument, because you're just going to say "you're twisting scripture!!:boxing:" because it's not how you have always read it. So I try hard to just use clear scripture. I know I don't always pull that off though.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
I do believe that no man would ever come to God except for God moving on people through a knowledge of the truth, through the foolishness of preaching, through scattering the seed, and some believe the truth(and he knows who will). That is a paraphrase of the Parable of the sower, I would like to hear your interpretation of that parable. You believe God makes them to be changed first, which to me, makes much of the bible pointless and inconsistent. Nowhere does the bible teach that belief or faith is a work that earns salvation, it teaches exactly the opposite, and the importance it puts on faith and belief tells me that it is pretty crucial, so I don't see any reason that faith cannot be the prerequisite for salvation. And the bible always puts "believe" before "saved". I posted a ton of these verses already, here's a few again. If you feel like making me do a whole bunch of work:zzzz:, I'll find some more, the bible is bursting with these verses.
1Pe 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Rom 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart, man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
James takes the faith thing even further, and provides an answer to your question.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
"Saving" faith, true faith, belief in Christ as your righteous Savior/Lord, produces fruit fitting for the life of someone who has repented.
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
GUD: "And so what happens to those that God never brings to this point?"
:bouncy:They are punished according to their works, and they will die in sin, because they rejected God. Not because He rejected them.
"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
Actually I wouldn't call it twisting to say that those verses are speaking of the disciples. However you miss the larger implication. You believe it's wrong to say that God forces people and that's exactly what we see in John 15. You don't have an explanation for this, other than to say it's not every single person. First of all, that doesn't matter. Second of all, that's just one verse. I've given numerous to show that God chooses and that He doesn't choose all. Giving one example out of the numerous scriptures I've given does not even come close to making your point that I will just tell you, you are twisting scripture.
" You believe God makes them to be changed first, which to me, makes much of the bible pointless and inconsistent."
Your view makes this verse pointless..."And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."....as well as the many others I have posted. You think my view doesn't make sense with the rest of scripture because you interpret scripture with the starting point that man has free will and God will not breach it. I have shown that not to be the case.
" And the bible always puts "believe" before "saved"
You are missing the point. Those who believe are the ones whom God has chosen. Faith is how they come. Faith does not mean head knowledge. It's saving faith. Furthermore, as I've shown in Acts 13:48...those who were appointed to eternal life are those who believe. Which of believes the natural reading of this verse?
"James takes the faith thing even further, and provides an answer to your question."
I know that saving faith produces fruit, but that wasn't a question of mine.
The difference between us in how we view who God is. I can admit that I view God in a different light than you and because of this we will never agree.
That's the problem. You have this idea of who you believe God is and so you interpret scripture in light of that. I go to the scripture to find out who God is.
I should respect you because you've been studying longer than I existed? If you've "studied" for that long, why are your views barely scratch the surface of what the scriptures say and why do you add so much to the scriptures that aren't there? I wasn't putting words in your mouth. You view God differently than me and because of this we will never agree. Those are your words. Because you think you know God, you read scripture in light of who you believe God to be. If you've "studied" for 30 years then why do you not understand God's grace yet? Why do you not understand that God teaches it is not man's will, but God who chooses?
It's possible to actually read the bible and then come to this conclusion, there are definitely enough scriptures to support this belief. As much as the bible talks about belief and faith, I have to acknowledge faith in the context that the bible speaks of it. Saved by grace through faith. Not saved by faith. Saved by grace. Through faith. Faith is not a work. Faith is the opposite of a work.
That verse you presented is no problem to explain through the belief that salvation is offered to all men, and that only the ones that God foreknew would have a true conversion are will be saved.
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"
I choose to believe that the weight of scripture is what determines truth, and what I see in scripture is that faith is something that happens to people before they're saved.
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Gal. 3:22
But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
I would still like to hear your interpretation of the parable of the sower, or even just all the parables of Jesus.
I know you'll probably say that God made the ground, and he made it stony or hard or good, but I think that the implications are pretty deep if you say that. It makes God an accessory to sin, and it means that God begins a good work in several of the soil types and then lets it fail. Especially the plants that were choked out by the thorns, which made them "unfruitful".
"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."
And perhaps one of the most telling truths about free will is that Jesus DID speak in parables, so that those with hard hearts would not believe, implying that if he didn't speak in parables, even those would believe the truth.
Imagine the following: A father allows his two-year-old son to go outside to play knowing full well that their house is next to a lake. He also knows that his son has a habit of not listening when told to stay away from the water. Still, this father doesn't want to be the kind of parent that smothers his kid. The little rascal will have to grow up sometime, so he is given great freedom to make his own choices.
Sure enough, as soon as he sets foot outside, the boy heads straight for the water. His father sees this, but does nothing. He just stares out the window and watches. The child steps onto the dock, and still the father looks on.
It isn't until the boy slips and falls into the water that the father rushes to the rescue. But he doesn't jump in after him. He takes a life preserver from the boat that's tied to the dock and tosses it to his son. "Grab it!" he shouts. The boy continues to splash and scream for help. "Grab the life jacket, son! It's all up to you. If you want to be saved, just reach out and take it."
Eventually, the young boy ceases to struggle and sinks below the surface. The life jacket floats where the father threw it. "Son!" he cries. "Can't you hear me? All you have to do is hold on and I can pull you in." No response. The father turns and heads back to the house. Words cannot describe the sadness he feels, but there just wasn't anything he could do. He offered life, but his offer was rejected, and that ultimate act of disobedience resulted in his child's death.
Now, if that really happened, there isn't a single court in the country that would let the father off the hook. At the very least, he would be found criminally negligent for his son's death. But in the minds of most people, the father would be just as guilty as if he had pushed his son into the water in the first place.
Here's the question I have for you Arminians: If a sovereign, loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God, who neither ordains nor causes bad things to happen but allows them to happen according to his permissive will, creates mankind with the foreknowledge that every human will fall into sin, then how could such a God escape responsibility for the pain and suffering of his creatures, much less the eternal damnation of those who don't respond to his free offer of salvation?
I submit that you cannot answer that question without abandoning your own Arminian worldview. You cannot answer it without resorting to the same theological gymnastics you accuse Calvinists of performing. And you certainly cannot answer it if you have a problem conceiving of a truly sovereign God who works all things for his ultimate glory.
