Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. James 4:8
WHAT IS PREDESTINATION?
Predestination is doctrine which teaches that God predetermined who would go to heaven and who would spend eternity in hell. Furthermore, it
teaches that each person has absolutely no choice in accepting or rejecting salvation through Christ. Every move you make and everything that
happens to you, good or bad, was predetermined by God. If you reject Christ it is because you never had a chance or option to believe.
Those who espouse predestination claim that if we have the free will to accept God�s salvation then we have earned our way into heaven. Therefore we�re not saved by grace but by our own merit-- we caused our own salvation, not God.
Belief in predestination is generally referred to as Calvinism or Reformed Theology.
� John Calvin (1509-1564):
o God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race,
without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.
o We proved above that something not subject to free choice is nevertheless voluntarily done.(1)
o Some are predestined to salvation, others to damnation (2)
o God �saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure� (3)
o Regarding the lost: �it was his good pleasure to doom to destruction.� (4)
o Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure, he dispenses and
ordains by his judgment that some, from their mother�s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify
his name in their perdition.(5)
o All are not created on equal terms, but some are predestined to eternal life, others to eternal damnation� (6)
� Huldrych Zwingli (1484�1531) was the leader of the Protestant Reformation in Switzerland, and founder of the Swiss Reformed
Churches. Zwingli viewed God as the cause of all human sin. A Reformed Theology website said, �Zwingli�s understanding of
predestination as indistinguishable from providence, logically inclines him to the conclusion that God is the cause of human sin.� (7)
� Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892): I believe that nothing happens apart from divine determination and decree. We shall never be able to escape from the doctrine of divine predestination - the doctrine that God has foreordained certain people unto eternal life. (8)
� Loraine Boettner (1901-1990): Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God. (44)
� Edwin Palmer: �All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history�whether inorganic matter, vegetation,
animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones-- come to pass because God ordained them, Even sin- the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history.� (9 )
� R.C. Sproul, Jr.: ��God desired for man to fall into sin�God created sin.� (10)
WHAT IS FREE WILL?
Free will teaches that when presented with the facts of God�s plan for salvation that every individual person has a choice to make, to either accept or reject God�s gift of salvation. God desires that every person accept His gift. What was predestined was God�s plan for salvation through Jesus
for those who accept it. Therefore if you accept that Jesus died for your sins and you have made Him Lord of your life then you are a part of the predetermined plan.
� Jesus Christ: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (11)
� Apostle Peter: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (12)
� Apostle Paul: For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. (13)
� Apostle Paul: This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved. (14)
Calvinists claim that their position is proven by early church leaders and then quote Augustine who lived from 354 to 430 AD. What do even earlier church leaders say about free will? Let�s look at a few. Some of these men were discipled directly by one or two of the original twelve apostles or by men the original disciples taught and mentored.
Ignatius of Antioch- Died between 98 and 110 AD. Ignatius was likely a disciple of both Apostles Peter and John and was martyred (Ignatius was condemned to fight wild beasts in the Coliseum) in Rome. Seven of his letters have survived to this day; he is generally considered to be one of the Apostolic Fathers (the earliest authoritative group of the Church Fathers):
� If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.(15)
Polycarp- c. 69 AD-c. 155 AD. Martyred by being burned at the stake in his 87th year. Polycarp had been a disciple of John (there is debate as whether this John was the son of Zebedee, or John the Presbyter (Lake 1912)).(16) I list Polycarp here not for any particular quote but because he
was a teacher of Irenaeus, whom I do quote:
� But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom... (17)
Irenaeus- (ca. 130-202) - Irenaeus, who was also a martyr, was taught by Polycarp and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. About 180 AD Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies Book IV, against ideas that would later become aspects of Calvinist and Reformed Theology in its denial of the free will as you can see in the following summaries:
� Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad. (18)
� Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power, by His Own Will and Choice, to Perform God�s Commandments, by Doing Which He Avoids the Evils Prepared for the Rebellious. (19)
Justin Martyr- c. 100/114AD � c. 162/168 AD. He was another early Christian apologist (defender) of the faith and was martyred by beheading. His works represent the earliest surviving Christian apologies of notable size:
� Man acts by his own free will and not by fate. (20)
� We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man�s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable
to do anything else than what he was made for. (21)
� But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless
we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. (22)
Clement of Alexandria (190 AD)
� A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace. (23)
� Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary. (24)
Archelaus (250-300 AD)
� All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases. (25)
Methodius (260-315 AD)
� Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils (26)
I could have quoted more early church leaders but the point is made. Lest you think I merely cherry picked favorable quotes to make my point consider what Calvinist Loraine Boettner has to say about the early church leaders. Boettner, author of The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination acknowledges that the early church fathers did not ascribe to the doctrine of predestination:
�It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century....They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination... They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free
will...� (27)
Regarding what we now call the doctrine of predestination Boettner went on to say, �This cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine...� Augustine lived from 354 � 430 A.D., well after the church fathers quoted above.
Boettner wasn�t alone in his conclusion that prior to Augustine there really weren�t any who espoused a doctrine of predestination of a certain elect few. In 1882 James Morrison wrote in The Extent of Atonement about an English Bishop, John Davenant (1572-1641), who was present at the
Synod of Dort in 1618. Bishop Davenant wrote:
It may be truly said before Augustine and Pelagius, there was no question concerning the death of Christ, whether it was to be extended to all mankind, or to be confined only to the elect. For the Fathers�not a word (that I know of) occurs among them of the exclusion of any persons by the decree of God. They agree that it is actually beneficial to those only who believe, yet everywhere confess that Christ died in behalf of all mankind�
Augustine died in AD 429, and up to his time, at least, there is not the slightest evidence that any Christian ever dreamed of a propitiation for the elect alone. Even after him, the doctrine of limited propitiation was but slowly propagated, and for long but partially received.
In other words, according to Reformed Theology, the early church fathers, men who studied under the original Apostles and Disciples or their students, did not understand basic Christian doctrine. Apparently the world would have to wait nearly 400 years for this revelation! They are in effect saying that Christ�s work and the Scriptures were not understood by the early Christians. It required some special revelation of hidden truth to special people centuries later. Isn�t that Gnosticism?
What we see is that Calvinists would rather put their trust in doctrine developed centuries after Jesus, the Apostles and the early church fathers, by a man who did not study with those closest to the source. Biblical historians and scholars will tell you the closer one gets to the original source, the
more likely one is to get accurate doctrine from those who were there. The reverse is true, the farther away you get from those who were there, the more likely that errors are to develop in doctrine.
There is about a 400 year jump between the original Apostles and their students until Augustine revealed �the truth,� then you had another 1,100 years until men like John Calvin came along to develop and enforce this doctrine.
Dave Hunt sums it up nicely:
"The huge difference between the biblical God and the Calvinist God is clear. The biblical God punishes men for rejecting the salvation He provided for everyone, which all could have accepted by their free will-and punishes them for their sins, which are contrary to His will, none
of which they had to commit but chose to do so.
But the Calvinist God condemns to hell those whom He could save if He so desired but for whom He sovereignly chose not even to have Christ die and from whom He deliberately withholds the salvation He pretends to offer them�and punishes them for not accepting. Yes, that's a huge difference."
The Berean Call, July 2007 Q & A
EARLY JEWISH THOUGHT
Jewish philosophy stresses that free will is a product of the intrinsic human soul and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment,
based on the Torah itself:
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life Deuteronomy 30:19
It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely. (28)
The 12-volume Jewish Encyclopedia, which was originally published between 1901-1906 has this to say about Free Will and Predestination:
FREE WILL: The doctrine that volition is self-originating and unpredictable. That man is free to choose between certain courses of conduct was regarded by rabbinical Judaism as a fundamental principle of the Jewish religion. Although generally following the ethical system of the Stoics, Philo, influenced by Judaism, professed the doctrine of free will ("Quod Deus Sit Immutabilis," ed. Mangey, p. 279), and Josephus states that the Pharisees maintained it against both the Sadducees, who attributed everything to chance, and the Essenes, who ascribed all to predestination and divine providence ("Ant." xiii. 5, � 9; xviii. 1, � 5). "All is in the
hands of God except the fear of God" is an undisputed maxim of the Talmud (Ber. 33b; Niddah 16b). Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=363&letter=F&search=free will
PREDESTINATION: The belief that the destiny of man is determined beforehand by God. "Predestination" in this sense is not to be confounded with the term "preordination," applied to the moral agents as predetermining either election to eternal life or reprobation. This latter view of predestination, held by Christian and Mohammedan theologians, is foreign to Judaism...Source:http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=503&letter=P&search=free will
Free will acknowledges that God is active in our lives and that He does intervene and cause certain things to happen as evidenced by the prophecies in the scriptures. Other things that happen to us are a result of choices we make. While yet other events happen because of sin that is in the world, we can�t control the events, we can control how we react to them. Free will teaches that because God is sovereign and active in our lives He can use any event for our benefit, even those events He does not directly cause to occur.
IS THERE A MIDDLE GROUND?
I�ve been told emphatically by a friend I�ll call Fred, who is a bi-vocational Reformed Theology pastor, �there is no middle ground.�
Loraine Boettner, author of The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination claims �there is no consistent middle ground between Calvinism and Atheism.�
DOES IT MATTER?
There are two reasons as I see it that it matters:
a) If a person's salvation is already determined there is no real point in being proactive in the faith or urgency in preaching the Gospel. If your neighbor is unsaved, Reformed Theology tells you that they will come to know Jesus or spend eternity in hell whether you tell them about God�s plan for salvation or not.
b) Calvinists believe that if you don�t believe in predestination it is because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal the truth of predestination to you. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of predestination to real believers so you must not be a real believer if you believe in free will.
Why do Calvinists even bother to debate the issue? After all, if Calvinists are correct then those believing in Calvinism and those believing in Free Will were predestined to have those beliefs, there is no basis for argument. Yet there seem to be more books and more web sites arguing the case for predestination than there are in favor of free will. Many Calvinist sites verge on the militant, dismissing any argument for free will out of hand. Many Calvinist websites I�ve come across call freewill dangerous to true faith. If, as Loraine Boettner claims, �there are no valid arguments for free will� then why devote so much time to arguing the case for predestination?
Again, does it matter? It shouldn�t be anything more than a difference in opinion. However, John Calvin had people executed who denied predestination and many prominent modern day Calvinists claim that Calvinism �is the Gospel,� the implication is if you reject Calvinism you also reject the Gospel, therefore you are not saved.
According to Calvinism the good news of the Gospel is not good news for everyone� The Reformed Theology Gospel is essentially this:
God only loves and saves those whom He chooses to love and save. Everyone else God specifically created to spend in hell, for eternal torment and damnation even though they never had the chance or option to accept God�s gift of salvation. This is �God�s good pleasure.� God demonstrates His Glory when he predestines certain people to destruction.
In case you think I�m exaggerating then read from John Calvin�s Institutes of Christian Religion:
� God �saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure� (29)
� �Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children�� (30)
� Regarding the lost �it was his good pleasure to doom to destruction�� (31)
� �But if all whom the Lord predestined to death are naturally liable to sentence of death, of what injustice, pray, do they
complain�because by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to perpetual destruction� what will they be able to mutter against their defense?�(32)
� �Now since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God�He arranges� that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction�� (33)
� ��by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to eternal destruction� (34)
This is in contrast with the Gospel I know. The Gospel means the good news, which is that God created us to have a personal relationship with Him and cares about every individual person:
�For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.� John 3:16-17
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Romans 1:16
THE PROBLEM WITH PREDESTINATION
According to Reformed Theology when someone, lets call her Molly, accepted Christ it wasn�t really because of her own free will, but because God created her specifically to accept Christ, without a choice.
Now suppose Molly's grown son dies without accepting Christ. Reformed Theology tells us that God created Molly's son specifically to spend eternity separated from God, in hell. Therefore all the years of prayer, anguish and hope that Molly�s son would someday accept Christ was a
waste of time.
It�s one thing to have a loved one that rejects God because of his own choice, but it is another to believe that person never had a chance because God never permitted or allowed them a chance.
To follow predestination to its logical conclusion we should not feel any sense of grief or sadness when an unsaved friend or relative dies and spends eternity in hell. Rather we should rejoice because the person is going to hell, just as God intended.
IN THE BEGINNING� IT WAS VERY GOOD
We see in the first chapter of Genesis that God created everything and everything He created was good.
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Genesis 1:31 NIV
What did God create that was not good? Nothing!
We�re also told that �God created man in His image�. The Bible tells us God created man, male and female, and God blessed them (Genesis 1:28). Nowhere in the Genesis account does it tell us that God created anyone specifically for eternal damnation.
Sin, Rebellion and Evil
God did not create the world to destroy part of it. That is something we brought on ourselves.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17 NIV
Sin: Everything God created was good, so how did sin enter the world? Apostles Paul and John tell us that sin entered the world through Adam and that God did not create sin.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12 NIV
�But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him� the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God� 1 John 3:5-9 NASB
God did not cause Adam to disobey Him; otherwise man wouldn�t have been created in God�s image. The Bible tells us that God hates sin and that sin can�t enter heaven. Solomon wrote: "This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes." Ecclesiastes 7:29 NIV
Reformed Theology says �God created us therefore whatever He does is just, whether we like it or not.� Yes, that is true, however, I don�t accept their definition of just nor do I believe that God is that capricious or arbitrary. God sets the standards for us and the standards are knowable.
A just parent cannot force his child to eat a cupcake and then slap the tar out of him for eating it. It�s a different case when the parent says, �Don�t eat the cupcake�, then if the child thinks about it and says to himself, �Dad really didn�t mean he�d punish me if I did eat it� or �I don�t care what Dad says, I make my own decisions and I am eating the cupcake anyway.� Then the resulting punishment is just.
Having free will means bad things are going to happen as a result of living in a fallen world.
When a loved one gets sick, or dies in a traffic accident, or loses their job, or just gets a cold many tend to say �it�s God�s will.� It is certainly a convenient and uncomplicated explanation. If one means its God�s will because He didn�t prevent it this is different than saying God caused it to
happen.That God didn�t prevent it doesn�t mean He caused it to happen. Many calamities are a consequence of living in a sinful fallen world of our own making. That is a consequence of having free will. Otherwise one would have to conclude that God causes every rape, every murder, and
every starving child. The truth is because God can use any incident for His glory, He doesn�t have to cause it to use it. In the same way, regardless of what befalls us, God expects us to react a certain way:
...Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ... Philippians 1:27 NIV
Rebellion: Did God create Lucifer/Satan, specifically to rebel and take a third of the angels with him? Because God is sovereign, He could have prevented the possibility of the rebellion from ever happening. Again, that God didn�t prevent it doesn�t mean He caused it to happen. God allowed it because He allowed free will.
Evil: Did God create evil?
And the LORD God commanded the man, �You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.� Genesis 2:16-17 NIV
And the LORD God said, �The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:22 NIV
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; Psalm 5:4 NIV
The LORD loves righteousness and justice Psalm 33:5 NIV
I have been told by my Reformed Theology friends that since God is sovereign over all it is presumptuous for us to call anything evil. They tell me since we cannot know God�s mind and God causes all things as part of His sovereign plan, then nothing is really evil, there is no difference between good and evil. Yet God's sovereignty is not threatened by free will and He tells us we can distinguish between good and evil.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil Isaiah 5:20
Josh McDowell had the following to say about creation, evil, and God�s love for us:
The Scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now, but evil came as a result of the
selfishness of man. The Bible says that God is a God of love and He desired to create a person and eventually a race that would love Him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given -- through free choice God allows us to accept His love or to reject it.
This choice made the possibility of evil a reality. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they did not choose something God created, but, by their choice, they brought evil into the world. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by selfishly choosing his own way apart from God�s way. (35)
GOD LOVES US
God created us out of love for a purpose. The purpose is God wants a relationship with us. A relationship cannot be one-sided where the interaction of one side is all controlled by the other side. Imagine creating a sock-puppet with button-eyes and carrying on both sides of a conversation with it. How satisfying is it for you as a creator to make up both sides of the dialog?
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. Deuteronomy 7:12 NIV
... the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. John 16:27 NIV
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8 NIV
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10 NIV
God created man for fellowship, not to keep us in a fishbowl as a pet, in a cell as a prisoner, or preprogrammed to be obedient robots. If God did, there would be no relationship.
God, from the beginning, had a plan to redeem mankind and built into that plan were choices and consequences for man. God desires fellowship with all mankind, not just certain people. Yet God knows that not all people are going to reciprocate because of the freedoms He gave us.
References:
1. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, II,v.
2. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III, viii
3. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,1.
4. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,7.
5. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,7.
6. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi, 5
Just a thought, instead of taking mans word for it, you may want to see what God says about it.
GOD CHOSE YOU (in the beginning) -
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Revelation 13:7-8 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.
YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE GOD, GOD CHOSE YOU -
Exodus 6:7 �I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Deut 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah."
{If God had not elected some to salvation, all would be lost; had God not chosen some, none would be saved.}
1Pet 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
Romans 11:5-7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (12) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; (28) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, (29) that no flesh should glory in His presence.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
John 10:2-3 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. (3) "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Romans 11:1-11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? (4) But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (5) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
(7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (8) Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." (9) And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. (10) Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
(11) I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
GOD DRAWS YOU TO HIM -
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Romans 11:7-8 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (8) Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
THE UNSAVED DON'T SEEK THE TRUE GOD -
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Psalms 10:4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek [God]; God [is] in none of his thoughts.
Psalms 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. (3) They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
Psalms 119:155 Salvation [is] far from the wicked, For they do not seek Your statutes.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 64:7 And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 65:1 I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.
Hos 7:10 And the pride of Israel testifieth to his face: and they do not return to the LORD their God, nor seek him for all this.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Matthew 18:12-14 "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? (13) "And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. (14) "Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
John 8:43-47 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. (44) You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (45) But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. (46) Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? (47) He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 8:5-9 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (8) So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
LIMITED ATONEMENT, JESUS DIDN'T DIE FOR EVERYONE -
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
Mark 4:10-12 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. (11) And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, (12) "so that �Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.�"
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. (14) "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (15) "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:26-27 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (27) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
(Christ died for His sheep, NOT the goats.) {The goats (unbelievers) are still in their sins}
John 8:21 Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
1 Corinthians 1:22-24 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; (23) but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, (24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 1:1 - "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ"
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Romans 9:15-18 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (16) So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." (18) Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Romans 8:32-34 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? (33) Who shall bring a charge against God�s elect? It is God who justifies. (34) Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. (12) Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:25-26 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another (26) He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (14) to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
John 12:37-40 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, (38) that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" (39) Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: (40) "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
John 10:24-29 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." (25) Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father�s name, they bear witness of Me. (26) "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (27) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (28) "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (29) "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father�s hand.
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (15) "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 17:1-11,20,24-26 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. (3) "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (4) "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. (5) "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(6) "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. (7) "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. (8) "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
(9) "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. (10) "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. (11) "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
(20) "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
(24) "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (25) "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. (26) "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world..
{"world" is defined} -
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
{only those who truly believe in Christ receive redemption & forgiveness of sins; all others are still in their sins}
Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
Actually we believe that men do reject. They just don't reject God's sovereign call. I didn't see anywhere in your post where scriptures shows we are predestined for free will
My goodness, there's a lot there, I'll see what I can do. This article is not mine, but instead of just responding with scriptures to support your beliefs(Even though that is good, thank you), could you also tackle some of the questions the article presents? I've been talking to one of my friends that believes like you two do, and we have nice civil discussions these topics, and I would just like to hear some more input on the matter. I'm always skeptical of my own skepticism, and the discussions we have raise many questions about my own beliefs that we never have time to get to.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
:bouncy:The kingdom was prepared for Christians from the beginning, definitely.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
:bouncy:God chose Christians like he chose Israel. Everyone who is born of Abraham will not be saved.
:bouncy:Romans 9
" For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
:bouncy:Again, Paul is speaking corporately, just like God did with Israel.
:bouncy:1 Corinthians 5
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
:bouncy:God definitely promised life to those who believe.
2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
:bouncy:Jesus was slain as a sacrifice for our sins from the foundation of the world, definitely.
Revelation 13:7-8 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
:bouncy:The Lamb was definitely slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
:bouncy:Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.
:bouncy:Romans 11
20because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE GOD, GOD CHOSE YOU -
Exodus 6:7 �I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I am the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
:bouncy:"because of unbelief they were broken off"
Deut 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
:bouncy:"because of unbelief they were broken off"
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
:bouncy:Yes, it is God's will to save "as many as received him and believed in his name".
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
:bouncy:Jesus chose the 12 for a specific purpose, they didn't choose their own teacher, and he didn't lose any that the father gave to him, except Judas.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
:bouncy:Every Christian is not of the world. Every sinner is. We are slaves to whom we obey.
John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
:bouncy:Luckily, God gave him authority over all flesh, but I would say he's speaking only of the apostles in this immediate context.
:bouncy:20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
:bouncy:Romans 11
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
:bouncy:All Jesus is saying is that salvation is impossible with out God.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
:bouncy:
Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah."
{If God had not elected some to salvation, all would be lost; had God not chosen some, none would be saved.}
:bouncy:Paul is talking specifically about Israel here, the majority were cut off because of unbelief, but there were some who believed.
1Pet 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
:bouncy:"because of unbelief they were broken off"
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
:bouncy:Jeremiah 18
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
:bouncy:You can say that God made the wicked, or that God made the wicked for the day of evil. They're really quite different. I don't think it's biblical to say God created evil. Everything God created was good. Evil cannot be present with God, and God hates evil more than anything, it would be contradictory for him to create it, so it makes much more sense to say that God purposed the wicked for the day of evil instead of saying God punishes them for what he made them to do.
Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
:bouncy:God chose Israel to be a holy priesthood and to bring Jesus into the world. Not everyone born of Jacob will be saved, and not everyone born of Esau will be lost. If this is taken how you intend, then I hope we're not related to Esau at all.
Romans 11:5-7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
:bouncy:" because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
:bouncy:Matthew 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
:bouncy:2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
:bouncy:John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
:bouncy:All the ones that did not bow.
Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
:bouncy:"because of unbelief they were broken off"
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
:bouncy:"because of unbelief they were broken off"
Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.
:bouncy:"because of unbelief they were broken off"
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
:bouncy:1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
:bouncy:Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
:bouncy:John 12
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
:bouncy:John 3:14
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
:bouncy:Agreed, only those that believe will be saved.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
:bouncy:Anyone that has been saved by faith, puts on these things. Faith without works is dead.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
:bouncy:All who believe were appointed to obtain salvation through faith. I'm not going to comment on any verse that just simply "mentions" the elect or the predestined or sheep.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
:bouncy:Called, and many are called. Chosen, and few are chosen. The faithful.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
:bouncy:For God so loved the world, He had mercy on us, that while we were yet sinners, He became the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Doesn't sound like we did anything to me. None of it would be possible without Jesus.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
:bouncy:"For by grace are ye saved through faith"
Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
:bouncy:"18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Romans 11:1-11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? (4) But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (5) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.(7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (8) Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." (9) And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. (10) Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."(11) I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
:bouncy:All who are of Israel are not Israel. Israel rejected the chief cornerstone. Israel was cut of because of unbelief, but it is not God's desire that they stumble AND fall at the rock of offense. He desires to graft them back in if they come back to the faith. Whoever falls on the rock will be broken, but on whomever the rock falls, it will grind them to powder.
:bouncy:I'm not going to comment on the rest, I agree with the next two (God draws, and no sinner would seek God). Limited atonement I think has been talked about enough. I believe there needs to be some serious reinterpretation of the bible to come to that conclusion, but that's a matter of opinion, because I'm sure you think the same thing about some of my beliefs.
Until you are acquainted with the God of scripture and are willing to bow your knee to the Sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God. We can have no discussion. God's word speaks for it self. You take what you want out of it and do not know what to do with the rest. May God be merciful to you as you study his word, not mans interpretation of it.
dljrn04: "Until you are acquainted with the God of scripture and are willing to bow your knee to the Sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God. We can have no discussion. God's word speaks for it self. You take what you want out of it and do not know what to do with the rest. May God be merciful to you as you study his word, not mans interpretation of it."
Well, like in the article I posted, the ones closest to Jesus and the apostles never taught predestination like it is taught today. I believe that is a pagan influenced belief from before the dark ages, just like many other beliefs we hold. I do "bow my knee to the Sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God", I just don't see the evidence for the interpretation of those Godly attributes you're talking about in the bible. I believe God has led me here, and all I can say is that I hope he continues to lead me. If you don't want to discuss the bible with me, I'm sorry you feel that way, I think that is a unhealthy approach to someone you disagree with, but you're free to do what you want.
GUD: "But your argument against limited atonement is weak because you simply point to words like "all" and "world" and ignore context."
That is simply your opinion based on your interpretation. I feel like you reinterpret and redefine clear biblical passages/examples as well, but that's fine, it makes sense in your view of the bible. It's very clear to me personally that God wants all men everywhere to repent, and he scatters the seed everywhere, I would love to see a bible verse where it says that Jesus only died for a few people, or even an argument as to why he would have only died for a few. It makes no sense to me. Every evil and unbelieving person in the world would have something to condemn God with if that were true, but I believe that every mouth will be stopped with the pure truth that God offered his son for the whole world. The unsaved will have no excuse to accuse God with.
You feel like I do, but you just cannot show how I do. However to fit your belief system, you must say that I redefine/reinterpret. I have actually gone through many of your posts and shown you how you were wrong and most often, out of context.
Mark " I just don't see the evidence for the interpretation of those Godly attributes you're talking about in the bible."
You have been shown time and again, and continue to deny the one and only God of the bible, therefore you worship a god of some mans making. I have been discussing the bible with you for days, and you continue to rely on you views some man told you came from the bible. I have given you God's holy infallible word, and you continue to deny it. I can do nothing more. May God of all truth open your blinded eyes to his word alone not your incorrect man made view of him.
"You have been shown time and again, and continue to deny the one and only God of the bible, therefore you worship a god of some mans making. I have been discussing the bible with you for days, and you continue to rely on you views some man told you came from the bible. I have given you God's holy infallible word, and you continue to deny it. I can do nothing more. May God of all truth open your blinded eyes to his word alone not your incorrect man made view of him."
Well, I will say the same thing that I said to GUD. I choose to continue to rely on what God has led me to through his scripture(I do have a mind of my own), and on what has changed my life into a life for him. If you choose to assume the worst motives possible and tell me what I think/believe, then no, we cannot have a legitimate conversation. But thank you for asking God to open my eyes, and let's just continue to pray that for all of us. I'm going to be sticking around, so you might just need to ignore me, or.....we can have discussion and conversation where we treat each other like the christians we each believe we are, but I believe that's up to you.
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
So believing in free will has changed your life into a life for Him? This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say it gives man a cause for boasting.
