Thread: Free Will - Let's have a serious discussion
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Free Will - Let's have a serious discussion
Posted : 10 Sep, 2013 11:13 PM
First off, I'm looking to have an actual conversation with people, which means, those copy-and-paste walls of text that consist of lengthy verse lists (as if the rest of us haven't read the same passages before) and hardly relevant assertions that don't aim to directly interact with the conversation in any way, are not appreciated.
I would also appreciate it if people could learn to wait their turn in conversation. Please take your time and don't post new questions/arguments if there are already questions/arguments posted that have yet to be addressed by those already participating.
I don't think this is much to ask. Please respect these requests.
Now on to the topic --
Free will. Does it exist? Is it bibilcal? No I do not believe we're beating a dead horse because quite honestly I don't see many people addressing the questions that really matter in the first place. For instance, what IS free will? If you say you believe in free will, what do you mean by that? Free will is not a biblical term, so it HAS to be carefully defined before anything can be meaningfully said about whether "it" exists. I have found that very few people take the time to do this, and that causes a lot of unnecessary confusion and misunderstanding in the ensuing conversation, especially on the part of those trying to argue against the concept that the will is enslaved.
I will begin by defining my position. I believe the Scriptures clearly teach that man is born dead in sin, and that this "deadness" is defined by an enslavement of one's nature to sinful desires. What that means is man is unable and unwilling, while in his natural state, to do anything truly pleasing to God (cf. Rom. 8:7-8; John 6:44; Jer. 13:23; etc.). Hence, the will is not free to choose contrary to its inclination, because the inclination determines the direction of the will, not vice versa. This is why Jesus said that good trees bear good fruit and bad trees bear bad fruit.
Note what I am saying and not saying. I have defined "free will" as the ability to always make a contrary choice. I did not define it at the ability to choose at all, or even the ability to choose whatever one wants to choose. If your understanding of "free will" is the idea that people are able to choose whatever they want to choose, that is not a point that ANYONE disagrees with and I would challenge you to recognize that such an idea in no way conflicts with the doctrine of sovereign election. By denying "free will," rather, what I am denying is the idea that man's will is autonomous -- that is, the idea that people are able to choose contrary to the inclination of their heart in and of themselves. I would argue there is simply no debate that such an idea cannot be biblically supported. The natural man is bent toward sin and thus chooses only sin because he desires only sin. He turns to Christ, then, only if and when and because the Spirit, in His sovereignty, changes that desire from one of wickedness to one of righteousness, upon which he then acts because that is the new inclination of the heart.
I hope that offers some clarification for some people. I can say much more but I want to hear from those who argue for "free will." Specifically, I want to hear your definitions of the term. What do you MEAN by "free will"? This question needs to be answered before any arguments given.
I believe Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was born in iniquity, and in sin hath my mother conceived me.
I was born separated from my creator. I was born with a sin nature, and that my will was to sin continually. God drew me unto himself, writing his law upon my heart to love him and to seek now to do his will. I will fight against sin till my Father calls me home and glorify's me. Until then by the grace of God i will live to glorify him, and live my life as he has called me to live in his precious word. Loving him, and loving my neighbor.Out of thankfulness for such my redemption through Jesus Christ my Lord.
Scott, you are right. My will is bent in a way that it is for wickedness only. I agree with everyone who professes this.
Simply put, God reveals to us Himself in measure. We either respond by saying I want you or I dont.
Our saying I want you God doesnt give any power to get to God. Our confessing I am a sinner and in need of Gods salvation doesnt produce and power to save me. My saying and admiting that I am unable to live my life to the fullest with out Gods leadership doesnt make me to be able to live life diferently.
The only thing I have according to my will that is bent toward sin is to admit I am. To say I neeeeeed something or in the case of God someone out side of my self to rescue me, save me , deliver me, etc.
When we come into agreement according to our bent wills toward sin according to Gods will then we have a starting place that God can work in our lives.
Or should I say that when we align our wills with the will of God. Then we have a place where God can work in our lives.
Really all we can say to God is this. Yes, no, not now.
That is as much our our wills we can express toward a all powerful God.
When we say yes, and come into agreement with God then we reconise also we lack any power to filfill the will of God. We then humbly ask God for His power and working in our lives.
Even in our flesh we have desires and needs. We as individuals according to our needs and desires will seek after what fulfills these, right?
Why not God? If we can seek to fulfill our needs by worldy ways why cant we according to our needs and desires seek after the one true God? We can because the bible tells us we can.
To think that God cant or doesnt use the desires that are evil in us to draw our lives and wills to Himself is obsurd. God uses everything at His disposal to fulfill His will and His will is that none should perish but all come to the knowledge of christ.
Any time we see according to Gods will that is His will. Or according to God purpose. God purpose is salvation of souls.
Why? that He might express in His fullness His love.
Think about this for a moment. If God truly needed or wanted to express in His fulness who He is.....LOVE. Then He had to create a being who could find the expression of such, LOVE.
God in His self had to create us and allow us to rebell that he might fulfill in Himself the ( need) to fully express His nature.
That we were predestined according to His will ( need) to create fallen humans that He could express fully His nature.
We were predestined because just as we are slaved to our nature according to our sinfilled hearts you can say that God is slave according to His nature according to His being Love to fulfill His nature in us.
It is only when we focus on Gods nature of being love does everything come into focus. Else we see through a glass dimly and even we see Gods love dimly but one day face to face.
Scott, you are right. My will is bent in a way that it is for wickedness only. I agree with everyone who professes this.
Simply put, God reveals to us Himself in measure. We either respond by saying I want you or I dont.
Our saying I want you God doesnt give any power to get to God. Our confessing I am a sinner and in need of Gods salvation doesnt produce and power to save me. My saying and admiting that I am unable to live my life to the fullest with out Gods leadership doesnt make me to be able to live life diferently.
The only thing I have according to my will that is bent toward sin is to admit I am. To say I neeeeeed something or in the case of God someone out side of my self to rescue me, save me , deliver me, etc.
When we come into agreement according to our bent wills toward sin according to Gods will then we have a starting place that God can work in our lives.
Or should I say that when we align our wills with the will of God. Then we have a place where God can work in our lives.
Really all we can say to God is this. Yes, no, not now.
That is as much our our wills we can express toward a all powerful God.
When we say yes, and come into agreement with God then we reconise also we lack any power to filfill the will of God. We then humbly ask God for His power and working in our lives.
Scott, you are right. My will is bent in a way that it is for wickedness only. I agree with everyone who professes this.
Simply put, God reveals to us Himself in measure. We either respond by saying I want you or I dont.
Our saying I want you God doesnt give any power to get to God. Our confessing I am a sinner and in need of Gods salvation doesnt produce and power to save me. My saying and admiting that I am unable to live my life to the fullest with out Gods leadership doesnt make me to be able to live life diferently.
The only thing I have according to my will that is bent toward sin is to admit I am. To say I neeeeeed something or in the case of God someone out side of my self to rescue me, save me , deliver me, etc.
When we come into agreement according to our bent wills toward sin according to Gods will then we have a starting place that God can work in our lives.
Or should I say that when we align our wills with the will of God. Then we have a place where God can work in our lives.
Really all we can say to God is this. Yes, no, not now.
That is as much our our wills we can express toward a all powerful God.
When we say yes, and come into agreement with God then we reconise also we lack any power to filfill the will of God. We then humbly ask God for His power and working in our lives.
Thanks for your reply, letthismind2. I just have one question about something you said:
"The only thing I have according to my will that is bent toward sin is to admit I am. To say I neeeeeed something or in the case of God someone out side of my self to rescue me, save me , deliver me, etc."
Let me make sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that it is possible for man to admit his need of a Savior and cry out to God, prior to God changing the desire of his heart?
If yes, then what do you do with texts like Romans 8:7-8 which state that those who are in the flesh cannot do anything to please God? Does it not please God to admit to oneself that one is a sinner? Surely it does. How then is it possible for anyone to do this, unless God grants them the ability and desire to do so?
I believe the Scriptures are clear that regeneration (the new birth) precedes faith, not vice versa. The whole point is that no man CAN or WILL choose to believe unless and until his heart is resurrected from its spiritual death.
I am posting Scripture that shows how men were seeking gods...heard the message, some were saved, many were not. I will deem phasing a verse at the end that is contained within the passage.
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Acts 17:16�Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.�
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. �And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.�
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?�
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.�
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars 'hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, to the unknown God. �Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.�
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;�
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;�
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;�
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:�
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.�
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.�
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:�
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32�And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.�
33 So Paul departed from among them.�
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
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30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Scott, Sorry for the multiple responses. Yesterday when I posted none of them showed up so I tried again. Wounder why that happened ? But I willfully tried again and again out of my stuburness......hahaha
I have one question for you scott to answer your question of what does freewill look like.
I believe the Scriptures are clear that regeneration (the new birth) precedes faith, not vice versa. The whole point is that no man CAN or WILL choose to believe unless and until his heart is resurrected from its spiritual death.
You can not find it anywhere in scripture to back up your statement, you can say as some have that scripture means this, as they apply they own rendering to scripture instead of believing scripture.
It is Faith Then Grace, that is how the kingdom of
Hi all, Huckleberry here... I had been looking in on this discussion because I have an opinion based on my own coming to the Lord but still have been uncertain on some particular questions like this one. So here we have a woman who is not of the people of Isreal... she was considered a pagan. Jesus himself had stated that he was sent only to the house of Isreal in vs.24
My question is, was her it her own humble persistence and faith that allowed Jesus to heal this woman's daughter or was grace given first to allow this woman to know who Jesus really was that she may ask this blessing from him?
The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, �Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.�
23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, �Send her away, for she is crying out after us.� 24 He answered, �I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.�
25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, �Lord, help me.�
26 And he answered, �It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.�
27 She said, �Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.�
28 Then Jesus answered her, �O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.� And her daughter was healed instantly.
