Thread: In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
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In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 16 Oct, 2013 08:36 AM
In the OT God ordered Israel many times to kill their enemies and God helped them do it!
Leviticus 26:7,8: God said to Israel, "You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the SWORD before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the SWORD before you!" Numbers 25:16,17" The Lord said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them!" etc etc
HOWEVER IN THE NEW COVENANT, JESUS SAYS, "ALL WHO DRAW THE SWORD WILL DIE BY THE SWORD!"
Jesus said to His 11 Apostles, "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. For it is written: "And He was numbered with the transgressors"{Isaiah 53:12} and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in Me. Yes, what is written about Me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See Lord, here are 2 {Not 11}swords." "That is enough." Jesus replied.
Matthew 26:30-34: They seized Jesus and arrested Him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "For *ALL* who draw the sword will die by the sword...But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
And so the only reason that Jesus allowed the disciples to have 2 swords was so that the Scripture in Isaiah 53:12 would be fulfilled: "He was numbered among the transgressors."
Jesus said to Pilate, "My Kingdom is not of this world. If it were, My servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But **NOW** My Kingdom is from another place!"
Former OT commands in Exodus 21:23-25 "If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This was changed by these NT commands by Jesus:
Matthew 5:38,39: Jesus commands, "You have heard that it was said {In Exodus 21:23-25 above}, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also!"
Luke 6:27-29: Jesus commands, "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you. do not demand it back!"
Romans 12:18-21: If it is possible, as far as it DEPENDS ON YOU, LIVE AT PEACE WITH EVERYONE! Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written, "It is mine to revenge, I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary "If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head" Do not be overcome by evil but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD!!
2 Corinthians 10:3,4: "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are *NOT* the weapons of the world."
The only weapons that NT saints may use who follow the New Covenant commands of Jesus is the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. A NT saint would not even think of joining the army of any nation and becoming a professional killer or defending himself with a gun. Unfortunately very few Groups such as the Amish and Mennonites still obey these sacred commands of Jesus.
I John 2:3-5: "We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His {Jesus'} commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what He {Jesus} commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys His Word, God's love is truly made complete in him."
The inspired words of the NT were inspired by God between AD 50 and AD 96 and the 4 Gospels were written about AD 65 And so all of the approximately 400 NT commands were not completed and in force until Around AD 96.
When you join the military and become a professional killer you must make a **VOW** that you will obey all the commands of your commanding officer. And so if He commands you to drop an Atomic Bomb that will kill about 100,000 civilians including about 25,000 innocent children you must obey this command!!!
What is th OT command concerning *VOWS* and *OATHS*?? Numbers 30:2: Moses said, "This is what the Lord commands: When a man makes a *VOW* to the Lord or takes an *OATH* to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said!"
What are the NT commands concerning making *VOWS* and **OATHS*??
James 5:12: "ABOVE ALL, my brothers, do not swear--not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.!!"
Matthew 5:33-37: Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said to your people long ago {Numbers 30:2 above}, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' BUT I tell you, Do not swear at all....Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No, 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one!!"
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 16 Oct, 2013 12:06 PM
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; 3:2,5,10-13;23-25: Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyonewho does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us!
"Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religous festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
All of the OT sabbath laws have been eliminated. All of the OT sacrifical and temple laws have been eliminated. All of the stoning to death laws for breaking the law have been eliminated. All of the laws concerning KILLING YOUR ENEMIES and an eye for an eye and making oaths have been eliminated. Circumcision laws have been eliminated. Loving one another AS JESUS LOVED US has replaced loving one another as you love yourself. And Jesus declared that all foods are now *CLEAN*!
Mark 7:18,19: Jesus says, "Are you so dull?" He asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." In saying this. Jesus declared ALL FOODS "CLEAN!"
Their about 400 NT laws to be obeyed with love in the hope of countless eternal rewards for faithful and loving service has replaced the 613 OT laws.
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 16 Oct, 2013 10:05 PM
Do you comprehend the difference between national security and personal revenge?
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 17 Oct, 2013 07:10 AM
All God requires of us is to care about people, weigh every option to avoid violence, offer peace to those who will have it, and be strong enough to stand against evil oppression.
Romans 13
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
God is not advocating pacifism anywhere in the bible. He does want us to avoid violence and aggression, but we must stand in the way of those who would oppress and attack. Yes, God wants us to love our enemies, but that does not entail letting them rape and pillage everyone. We're supposed to love our neighbors too. So how do we rectify those commands? We love everyone, but stand for justice and defend the helpless.
In the verses you quoted, Jesus was talking about personal revenge and uncontrolled anger and aggression. Jesus wanted his apostles to buy those swords for defending each other, not to lash out and attack servants.
"If it is possible, as far as it DEPENDS ON YOU, LIVE AT PEACE WITH EVERYONE!". We're supposed to do everything we can to maintain peace, but if we see someone being abused or murdered, pacifism advocates that we stand and watch it happen."Pacifism" just watches the helpless suffer and die. There's no love in that. Pacifism bears responsibility for millions of deaths, I think it's detestable to hide in a fabricated moral high ground while our fellow humans are trampled under the feet of evil. I may not defend myself, but I will definitely defend others, and I think that's a balanced biblical stance.
Isaiah 59
Justice is turned away backward, and righteousness standeth afar off; for truth is fallen in the street, and uprightness cannot enter. Yea, truth is lacking; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. And Jehovah saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice.
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 17 Oct, 2013 12:05 PM
We certainly agree that all Christians should pay taxes even if some of the money is ued for evil purposes for Jesus commanded us to pay taxes to Cesear who was certainly a pagan Satanic king. And we should certainly not use our valuable time to protest what the government is doing even if we are a Christian in North Korea or Iran etc. And we also understand that governments are supposed to give justice in courts of law to protect us from evil people.
The question is should Christians join the armies of any nation which would always include making a vow or oath to obey all the commands of our commanding officers and to become professional killers.
Down through the centuries of the New Covenant there have been many Christian pacifists who have obeyed all the commands of Jesus to offer up the other cheek to love all our enemies and to not make any vow which is always SATANIC. And if anyone does not obey their commanding officers in any army they are either killed or put in prison.
Total pacifists would include the Amish, the Albigensis , the Waldenses, the Mennonites and the Anabaptists. The 100 year religious war between the Lutheran Germans and the Roman Catholic French was extremely evil on both sides. And the reason the German Amish fled to America was because the Lutheran Germans would kill them if they did not join the army.
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 18 Oct, 2013 09:34 AM
I do not think a christian should obey any man that conflicts with God's commands, which is part of my problem with pacifism. Pacifism lets evil reign with no real contest. I don't think a christian should be clamoring to join an army and kill people, but I also don't think a christian should just stand and watch when someone is in trouble or when someone is forcing evil down the throats of everyone. That being said, I don't think the bible prescribes pacifism in any form. I DO think the bible prescribes peace for everyone, but peace doesn't come from letting evil trod everyone underfoot. It comes by strong righteous men standing against evil with God backing them up, either a lone prophet condemning idolatry and slaughtering the 300 prophets of Baal, or a lone boy, disgusted with the cowardice of his king's army, stepping out with a sling to fight a giant, or by 300 dedicated warriors under the command of a faithful leader, etc. The list goes on. As New Testament Christians, I do think we're called to a deeper and fuller realization of how God wants us to deal with things, much like David did when the man was insulting him by the roadside. David told his captain not to do anything. But, if the same man had been murdering someone else by the roadside, do you think David would have interfered or just watched? I'm sure David could have wisely weighed the options available and determined the amount of intervention the situation required to have the best outcome for all involved. If the murder was seconds away, He could have struck the would-be murderer down, mortally or not. If it was minutes away, he may have tried to reason with the man or stand between him and the victim. There are many options available, just because one is not a pacifist, it doesn't make them a marauding vigilante that has no regard for life and no love for their enemies.
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 18 Oct, 2013 03:44 PM
Apparently dont hit the mark you prefer the Old Testament Covenant than the commands of Jesus in the New Covenant.
Jesus said to Pilate, "My Kingdom is not of this world. If it were, My servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But **NOW** My Kingdom is from another place!"
Former OT commands in Exodus 21:23-25 "If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This was changed by these NT commands by Jesus:
Matthew 5:38,39: Jesus commands, "You have heard that it was said {In Exodus 21:23-25 above}, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also!"
Luke 6:27-29: Jesus commands, "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you. do not demand it back!"
Romans 12:18-21: If it is possible, as far as it DEPENDS ON YOU, LIVE AT PEACE WITH EVERYONE! Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written, "It is mine to revenge, I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary "If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head" Do not be overcome by evil but OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD!!
2 Corinthians 10:3,4: "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are *NOT* the weapons of the world."
The only weapons that NT saints may use who follow the New Covenant commands of Jesus is the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. A NT saint would not even think of joining the army of any nation and becoming a professional killer or defending himself with a gun. Unfortunately very few Groups such as the Amish and Mennonites still obey these sacred commands of Jesus.
I John 2:3-5: "We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His {Jesus'} commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what He {Jesus} commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys His Word, God's love is truly made complete in him."
The inspired words of the NT were inspired by God between AD 50 and AD 96 and the 4 Gospels were written about AD 65 And so all of the approximately 400 NT commands were not completed and in force until Around AD 96.
When you join the military and become a professional killer you must make a **VOW** that you will obey all the commands of your commanding officer. And so if He commands you to drop an Atomic Bomb that will kill about 100,000 civilians including about 25,000 innocent children you must obey this command!!!
What is th OT command concerning *VOWS* and *OATHS*?? Numbers 30:2: Moses said, "This is what the Lord commands: When a man makes a *VOW* to the Lord or takes an *OATH* to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said!"
What are the NT commands concerning making *VOWS* and **OATHS*??
James 5:12: "ABOVE ALL, my brothers, do not swear--not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned.!!"
Matthew 5:33-37: Jesus says, "You have heard that it was said to your people long ago {Numbers 30:2 above}, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' BUT I tell you, Do not swear at all....Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No, 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one!!"
In the OT God ordered Israel to kill their enemies many times and God helped them do it. However in the NT Jesus commands, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." Luke 6:27-29
Posted : 21 Oct, 2013 06:42 AM
I do follow Jesus commands when it concerns myself, but the love I learn from God, for my neighbors and my enemies, does not equip me to passively watch someone else suffer when I can do something about it, and I think that is very much in harmony with everything Jesus taught. If someone slaps me in the face, I will turn the other cheek. If it's someone else that is being abused and downtrodden, then that is a completely different story.
