Thread: The Church As A Regular Meeting or Assembly and the Church as the Elect Body of Christ
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The Church As A Regular Meeting or Assembly and the Church as the Elect Body of Christ
Posted : 6 Nov, 2013 05:26 AM
The Church As A Regular Meeting or Assembly and the Church as the Elect Body of Christ
The Internal revenue definition of a church is accurate: The IRS definition of church includes: a) A distinct legal existence, b) A recognized creed and form of worship, c) A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government, d) A formal code of doctrine and discipline, e) A distinct religious history, f) A membership not associated with any other church or denomination, g) An organization of ordained ministers, h) Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study, i) A literature of its own, j) Established place of worship, k) Regular congregations, l) Regular religious service, m) "Sunday schools" for the religious instruction of the young, n) Schools for the preparation of its ministers."
This is from Internal Revenue Service Publication 1828, "Tax Guide for Churches and Other Religious Organizations."
In scripture ekklesia is almost always used to talk about a local assembly of believers. The idea of calling the elect, the saints, the Body of Christ, which is all saved people, the church is another definition of church. This is the "Church" which was said to replace physical Israel. And the dispensationalist "Church" as the Body of Christ, and the elect, claims the Catholic Church did not replace physical Israel, but that the dispensationalist "Church" exists now alongside of physical Israel as two peoples of God, with the implication being that God now has two saved groups. A number of quotes saying God now has two peoples are easily found from books by dispensationalist leaders. This is an obvious conflict with John 10: 16 and Romans 12: 5, as well as some other verses by Paul.
The two different definitions of "Church" is confusing. How can the church, translated from ekklesia, which means a meeting, an assembly or congregation which meets regularly, and includes unsaved people, as well as saved people, also be the elect of God? The elect of God is all saved people.
The percentage of unsaved people in the assembly would be different at different places and especially at different points in time.
In Matthew 13: 36-43, the parable of the sower, says "
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
The field is the world. This refers not to the world outside of the gatherings of those who claim to be Christians, but to the congreations all over the world. These congregations are made up of different percentages of wheat and tares. That is, Christ said to allow the tares to live alongside the wheat and not to destroy the tares because in trying to do that some who are really wheat will also be destroyed. And the tares, when the congregation is dominated by them, will try to destroy the wheat.
At a point in time, however, the congregations of those who claim to be Christians are taken over by the tares. "Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19. It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20. And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21. It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." Luke 13: 18-21
The word "till" indicates that the leavening goes on over time until the whole of the congregations are leavened by the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3. Then the congregations are run by tares and are tare congregations. But in dispensationalist end time prophecy this does not happen until after the tribulation begins. The falling away cannot go on for many decades and is part of the tribulation.
II Thessalonians 2: 3 says "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
The "falling away" is from αποστασια, apostasia, or apostasy, a departure from sound doctrine into another Gospel and another Jesus. The man of sin is from ανθρωπος της αμαρτιας, anthropos tes amartias. For some reason the Westcott-Hort Greek text has ανθρωπος της ανομιας, the anthropos tes anomias.
The literalist "hermenutic" says this man of sin is the one man political leader called the Anti-Christ who is to appear after the rapture of the dispensationalist church, and will make a treaty with Israel, brake it and desecrate the newly re-built temple in Jerusalem. But the anthropos tes amartias is a metaphor. You could say he is like the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who cannot receive the things of the Spirit or know them. He rejects the truth. But metaphorically this man of sin as many men of sin sits in the temple of God, which is the minds and hearts of those who claim to be of God. He as a collective mentality takes over those who claim to be of the elect, the Body of Christ.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy......Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.....Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." II Timothy 3: 1-2,5, 7-8
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." II Timothy 4: 3-4
II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 and II Timothy 4: 304 are describing the congregations after the falling away has gone on a while.
When the congregations are dominated by tare leaders and only a few wheat is left, then Revelation 18: 4 applies. "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
The Church As A Regular Meeting or Assembly and the Church as the Elect Body of Christ
Posted : 6 Nov, 2013 05:35 PM
I think I�m too stupid to know what you are talking about. The synagogue I go too I Messianic; we have Jews show up that are curious and we have a lot of �Christians� show up that want to know there Jewish roots� we might be a church but we don�t go by that term anyway� seeing how we have Shabbat on Fri. night and Sat. morning I thing all of you Christians are wrong on the Sabbath anyway so wouldn�t that make for a fun topic�?!? ..lol Really, what are you talking about?
The Church As A Regular Meeting or Assembly and the Church as the Elect Body of Christ
Posted : 7 Nov, 2013 05:38 AM
After the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and the leavening of Luke 13: 18-21 has gone on for a while and the leavening of the Christian community has been taking place for some time, to use the term "Church" to mean the elect or saved people is deceptive. This is because there is an increasing number of people in the "Church" who are not saved, though they think they are. The use of the Greek word ekklesia in the New Testament to refer to a local congregation is honest and not deceptive. That meaning given to ekklesia does not imply that everyone in the congregation is part of the elect, or the saved.
When you use the word "Church" in the sense of the universal
"Church" making up the people from many congregations the next step is easier, which is to define the "Church" as being made up of the elect, that is, only of the saved, when, in fact, this is not true. And the next step is for the "Church" to teach or imply that there is no salvation outside of the Church, in Christ. The "Church" has replaced Christ.
"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 22: 14
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." I Timothy 2: 4
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.........................Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
.............................7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." II Timothy 3: 1-2, 5, 7-8
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thessalonians 2: 10-12
To teach or imply that the "Church" is made up only of the elect of God is shown not to be true when many in the churches follow doctrines clearly different than the Gospel taught by scripture, which is that Gospel Paul referred to in Acts 20: 27 as all the counsel of God.
The Church As A Regular Meeting or Assembly and the Church as the Elect Body of Christ
Posted : 7 Nov, 2013 01:58 PM
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." Daniel 2: 44
The four pre-Cross kingdoms of man are shown in Daniel 2: 31-32. They are Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. The kingdom of God was set up during the Roman Empire.
"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17: 20-21
"Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
The kingdom of God is not an earthy of physical kingdom like the four pre-Cross kingdoms of man seen in Daniel 2. It is not of this world in the sense that it is governed by man or subject to man as were the kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Therefore the kingdom of God, not being subject to man and man leaning to his own understanding, can be eternal and unchanging. It is a spiritual kingdom within those who are in Christ, something in their inner life.
"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1: 3-7
The Apostles at this time were still thinking about that which was physical, and had not yet received the Holy Spirit which was soon to come. They were still within the mindset of physical Israel, thinking about Christ restoring the physical kingdom of Israel.
When the kinddom of God began on Pentecost (Acts 2) the change that Christ had made possible happened for a remnant of physical Israel. Here he, as the dresser of the vineyard of Luke 13: 6-9 gave Israel a new life, which is spiritual life. "Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4: 13-14
"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10: 10
Christ changed physical Israel so that those in it and those in Hosea 2: 23, which were not his people but who become his people, could have spiritual life more abundantly. Though he came to bring spiritual life, he also came to bring physical life, and not death. In Luke 9: 52-55 when James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven and kill the people of a village who rejected Christ, he told them "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." The two disciples were still operating within the mindset of physical Israel, which would want to kill those who did not agree with their doctrines.
There are several NT scriptures where the change from physical Israel to that spiritual house of I Peter 2: 5-9 is made explicit. "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." Since Hebrews 10: 1 might be interpreted to mean that only animal sacrifice was done away with, look also at Colossians 2: 16-17: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. "
Colossians 2: 16-17 is significant because it lists several things of the Law of Moses which are now seen as mere shadows: diet restrictions, holy days, new moons, and the sabbath days. The seventh day sabbath, which is Saturday, was, in part, to celebrate the seventh day rest in the Lord. God created the word and man during six days, and on the seventh day he rested. Hebrews 4: 3 says "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said..."
The seventh day represents man in Christ. Man must stay in the seventh day and not go on to the eighth, which is a mix of man obeying God and man leaning to his own understanding. This is man interpreting the teachings given him by God in man's own way, so that after a while it is these interpretations of God's word by man which mad substitutes for God's word. This is what happened with physical Israel. The Talmud interpreted the Old Testament and after some time, the Talmud was regarded as the authority, though aspects of the New Testament were honored to preserve the authority of the Pharisees. During the era of the Christians this same thing happened again. The Catholics were more open about the Church having the authority to make doctrine. In protestant seminaries interpretations of scripture are taught more than scripture itself. To some extent the recent Bible versions, especially the NIV, are interpretations of the Greek NT text and not word for word translations.
In I Corinthians 3: 16-17 and I Corinthians 6: 19 the physical temple building was replaced by the believers themselves now bring the temple of God. Paul explains in Galatians 3: 3-29 that all who are in Christ are now the spiritual seed of Abraham.
The spiritual kingdom of God began during the days of the Roman Empire. Christ made that possible by his ministry and death on the Cross, but the kingdom began its existence on the Day of Pentecost in about 33 A.D. Then, in the period of about 66 to 70 A.D. the Roman army laid seige to Jerusalem which fell in 70 A.D. So, the spiritual kingdom of God began very close to the time of the when physical Old Covenant Israel headquartered in Jerusalem, with the temple worship system, etc came to and end. Talmudic Judaism had existed long before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Talmudic Rabbinic Judaism continued after that time without the temple system, etc. But Old Covenant Israel as a house never accepted Christ and so never was a part of the kingdom of God. Only that remnant of Romans 11: 5 accepted Christ and became the beginning of the spiritual kingdom of God. But that remnant was changed in accepting Christ and cannot be regarded as physical Israel. The remnant was born again in Christ, and transformed as Paul writes about in Romans 12: 2. This is that change of Israel that God said he could do in Jeremiah 18: 6, "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
In Revelation 13, the first beast is partly that head whose deadly wound was healed (Revelation 13: 3, healed in 1948), which is the spirit of anti-Christ, and the second beast of Revelation 13: 11-18 is the false prophet, which represents many false prophets (Matthew 24: 11), but in time the false prophet takes over the thing called the church and the church becomes the second beast of Revelation 13.
