Some thoughts on Revalation that came to mind the other night. I was reading near the end, considering how Jesus himself used rather unambiguous language when he statred "What is it to you if he [John] lives until I return?" It felt like an irrefutabe weight against other interpretations of when Jesus would come (or had come) again. During John's lifetime at least.
Then it struck me, some Milennial interpretations (I forget the name of that way of interpreting the prophecy) but it basically goes like this. John was alive to see the return of his Lord and Saviour; and Nero was one of the beasts. Other Roman emperors participated in the persecution of Christians, but not many with the intensity of him. Also Nero was born with a birth defect in his head that should have been fatal (the head wound) but he survived.
Later toward the end after a great battle in heaven, the devil and beast are sealed beneath the earth for a thousand years. Then they are let loose to decieve the nations again 'for a short time' which many have postulated to be another thousand years. What if John was right though, when he said a short time suddenly crossed my mind. Certainly not another thousand years then. So a 'short time' would place the final resurrection and judgement in AD 1300 or 1400 or near then. What if the devil and beast are both destroyed and all we now have to blame for the evil in the world is man? It would make sense for many reasons, although one might squirm at the thought man alone could be so evil.
Secondly in reading very closely the narrative and description of the new Jerusalem that appears 'coming down from heaven' for 'the first heaven and earth passed away' could be said to be a spiritual realm where the soul goes after life on earth. If that were true, then at that second judgement when the Martyrs had been safe then and all the other souls of men were judged and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire and destroyed (which would be perhaps 900 years or more ago now) then those ancient enemies no longer exist. I would assume some demons and evil creatures still do though. This would also explain why 'outside of the city are fornicators and liars' and they didn't go to destruction or death or torment as the traditional 'hell' concept would have it. Thus the advent of purgatory came as all other alternatives ceased to exist.
It begs the question if it is true. Is man evil enough in and of himself to do all that is amiss in the world today? If man were evil enough to inspire the crusaders to sack Rome's equal the holy see of Constantinople while the dark one were sealed and kill all the priests they could find, if man were evil enough to invent religions (such as Islam) where killing those with other beliefs is encouraged to follow and worship a simple man; then yes. It is more than possible it becomes plausible. Many have asked 'what is man other than a carnal ape?' and in this light one has to wonder. Even though we might excuse the kings of Israel of old of following false idols we might excuse them for temptation which we might no longer face, but what does that really change? As man may be inherently good such also is his capacity for evil and deceit and greed and all manner of sins.
I also have a minority interpretation of Revelation.
As I understand it, the New Jerusalem is identified as the Bride of Christ. It is a metaphor for the church.
Nero as one of the beasts ... I'm probably going to agree with you there, but not ready to be dogmatic.
Christ's return within John's lifetime -- yes. I understand a "coming in judgement" rather than a bodily return to be what was prophesied. And that was fulfilled at the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem.
Have you read R.C. Sproul's book, The Last Days According to Jesus? I find myself agreeing more than disagreeing there.
No I haven't read the book, sounds very interesting. I try to never be dogmatic about any interpretations of things, and reserve belief for the most important parts of the faith. Leaves me with an open mind to think on other ideas.
"I also have a minority interpretation of Revelation."
The preterist view?
There is good reason you are in the minority.
Its dismissed by the MAJORITY. It is HERESY:excited:
Preterism teaches that the Law was fulfilled in AD 70 and God�s covenant with Israel was ended. The �new heavens and new earth� spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a �new creation� (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a �new earth.� This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology.
Preterists usually point to a passage in Jesus� Olivet Discourse to bolster their argument. After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, �Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened� (Matthew 24:34). The preterist takes this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking�the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was therefore �Judgment Day.�
The problems with preterism are many. For one thing, God�s covenant with Israel is everlasting (Jeremiah 31:33�36), and there will be a future restoration of Israel (Isaiah 11:12). The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely �that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some� (2 Timothy 2:17�18). And Jesus� mention of �this generation� should be taken to mean the generation that is alive to see the beginning of the events described in Matthew 24.
I pray you seek the Lord for understanding and quit leaning on your own understanding.
Lamp Unto My Feet, This a book that the Holy Spirit has inspired on the subject of The Book of Revelation and it will scripturally leave no stones unturned concerning the book of Prophecy. find at lulu.com
From what I can tell Preterism has never been deemed heretiucal. It does not mention this in the wiki article that I can tell. It also wasn't wholesale dismissed by my priest when I brought it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism
Also from what I can tell my complete timeline is very different than those others have come up with perhaps. I am not suggesting AD 70 or any time near there as the date of the first resurrection, rather closer to AD 300 or perhaps even after. There were a lot of martyrs required to complete the 144,000 to be sure even though there were so many falling to the lions. There will be more to come on this and a better idea of timing of prophetic events but for now let me leave you with a thought.
The idea of heaven cannot be proven in the bible, in fact it doesn't seem to be possible to exist until the end of Revalation. Thus the only destination for a soul is to death or hell, and they would have to remain dead until the resurrection. I believe heaven and purgatory (somewhat like in The Great Divorce, CS Lewis) exists so I have even personal reasons to think so.
What book? Don't know what you're talking about. Also protestants don't have heresy, but they hold heretical beliefs. Not trying to be offensive about that, but as far as I know all protestant denominations hold some belief or many which have been condemned as heresy by the Orthodox and Roman churches.
My suggested dates actually line up almost perfectly with John Foxe's (1516-1587) who wrote Foxe's Book Of Martyrs. If anyone has read it he spells it all out with great precision. Whether he knew what his words implied or not I'm not sure yet but how he could have missed it I don't know. He even seems to go out of his way to use words that imply the millennial peace, the sealing of the martyrs, and the ancient serpent's return.
In The Story of Constantine chapter he ends it with the next to last page being titled 'a thousand years of peace'. "Constantine so established the peace of the Church, that for the space of a thousand years we read of no set persecution against the Christians, unto the time of John Wykliffe." Thus the thousand years of the serpent being sealed in the pit he makes pretty solid reference to.
He then from that point on takes the protestant side of every argument. To say he was a cheerleader for Wyckliffe is an underestimation. The next chapter was extremely inaptly named John Wyckliffe, The Morning Star Of The Reformation. I say inaptly named because the devil was also called the morning star. In the chapter on Wyckliffe, and the following one on Jan Huss we can clearly see the devil's work sowing division in the Church, working both popes against popes and the clergy against the clergy and pope and cardinals against those who claim a private revalation and believers in general.
This seems to be a relatively short lived thing though, as the major divisions and troubles only seem to last a hundred years. The seeds of division continue to grow of course but the troubles in the Church do die down again, or at least the apparent active agitation subsides. The pope continues in his all too human corruption, and the people continue to grow away from him, and the gulfs in between the churches continue to grow at a slower rate.
I would from Foxe's own work suggest the foundation of then new earth and the creation of a heaven (heaven cannot scripturally exist until the end of Revalation's prophecy when the new heaven and new earth are made) took place somewhere around 1500AD, give or take a couple decades. The peace of the church and the resurrection of the 144,000 martyrs who reigned with Christ for a thousand years took place shortly after Constantine's vision of the cross which caused him to credit Jesus for his victory over the emperor who persecuted the Christians severely, around 312AD. Thus the serpent was sealed from shortly after 312 to 1312 or shortly after, then roamed the earth from some time after 1312 to 1400-1500. This probably means the prophecy of him going and surrounding the 'camp of the saints' was probably not any earthly city or battle either, because the saints were in the throne room of God ruling with Jesus.
Oh I see what book now. I did read it with spiritual guideance, believe me. I even said to John before I opened it, "I'm going to take you as literally as possible, if you say a year I'll count a year, if you say a thousand I'll count a thousand" Who better to ask for help than the author who had the vision after all?
The last part of the interpretation (possibly). John 21:18-23
Peter was grieved because he asked him the third time, "�Do you have affection for me?�" He said to him, �Lord, you know everything. You know that I have affection for you.� Jesus said to him, "�Feed my sheep. " 18 "Most certainly I tell you, when you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where you wanted to. But when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you don�t want to go.�" 19 Now he said this, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. When he had said this, he said to him, "�Follow me.�" 20 Then Peter, turning around, saw a disciple following. This was the disciple whom Jesus sincerely loved, the one who had also leaned on Jesus� breast at the supper and asked, �Lord, who is going to betray You?� 21 Peter seeing him, said to Jesus, �Lord, what about this man?� 22 Jesus said to him, "�If I desire that he stay until I come, what is that to you? You follow me.�" 23 This saying therefore went out among the brothers, * that this disciple wouldn�t die. Yet Jesus didn�t say to him that he wouldn�t die, but, "�If I desire that he stay until I come, what is that to you?�"
Many people have trouble figuring out what Jesus meant here. I offer a radically simple interpretation. John remained on earth in his deceased body until 1400-1500AD. In other words, he died a natural death and was buried and remained on earth until the general resurrection that took place between 1400 and 1500. The reason for this is the rest of the apostles were martyred and therefore were part of the 144.000 who were resurrected sometime in the 300s, but John not being martyred 'remained until the Lord came' here on earth, and was resurrected with all the rest of the normal souls.
