Thread: Facts Seventh-day Adventists Won't Tell You
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Facts Seventh-day Adventists Won't Tell You
Posted : 26 Jun, 2015 05:11 PM
Blondies expose': Part 2
SDA ie 7th Day Adventists
Facts Seventh-day Adventists Won't Tell You
Seventh-day Adventists won't tell you they are behind the "Revelation Seminars" they sponsor. They act all" interdenominational" if questioned. Watch out for these SDA outreaches as well: Voice of Prophecy, Faith for Today, It is Written, The Quiet Hour, Amazing Facts etc. They also hide behind Heath oriented shows on the networks, and sponsor stop-smoking clinics etc, all as introductions to Seventh-day Adventism.
Often, the only tip-off that what you are reading originates with them is that it is published by "Pacific Press". They produce bright and colorful Children's books, often seen in medical and dental offices, and of course, unsuspecting Church libraries.
They very much want to be perceived as Evangelical Christians, seeking a place on the ministerial fellowships. All this is good PR for them, but what do they really believe?
What facts won't they tell you?
They won't tell you that they consider themselves to be the only, true, remnant Church. Their prophetess, Ellen G. White, whom they revere and believe without question has told them that
"...Satan has taken full possession of the Churches". (Spiritual Gifts V.l,p.189-90) They also believe our prayers are an "abomination" to God. (Spiritual Gifts, V1 p.190).
That is what they think of you and your church, even if they won't say it out loud in public, or to your face.
They revere their founding prophetess, Ellen G. White, and made this statement in their "Ministry" Magazine of Oct. 1981 and have never retracted it:
"We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other".
They won't tell you too much about Ellen G. White at their public seminars, but their goal is to bring the person attending to the point of conversion and baptism.
Their 2000 baptismal certificate poses questions to which the candidate must answer "yes". Question 8 says,
"Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church".
If the candidate says "yes" and is baptised, they soon learn that the "gift of prophecy" is Ellen G. White's writings. Point 13 has them accepting that the SDA Church is the remnant church of Bible Prophecy. They have been baptized into an exclusive group, but they don't know how exclusive it is, yet!
No doubt they will be urged to avail themselves of a "Clear Word Bible". This publication of theirs has inserted the words and doctrines of Ellen G. White right into the Bible text, insuring that the person studying it will have the mind of Ellen G. White.
Slowly, but surely, the new SDA will come to believe these extra-biblical doctrines that set the SDA church apart from Evangelical Christianity.
Doctrine on Christ
Seventh-day Adventists, in the early days, denied the Trinity, but now they accept it. However, they have "leftovers" from this heresy. Ellen G. White wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets, page 761, "...He (Jesus) was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord's Host, Michael the Archangel".
Adventists, you can't have it both ways! Either Jesus Christ is God, or He is some kind of an Angel. You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth to try to cover up embarrassing statements by Ellen G. White. They won't tell you she was wrong - when its "her or the Bible", she always wins!
Doctrines on Salvation
If you receive Christ as your Saviour through the SDA's, only your past sins, up to that moment are forgiven. Now you must get to work to earn your salvation. Ellen G. White said in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald of 10-26-1897 this statement,
"...The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined. It is plainly stated that the condition of gaining eternal life is obedience to the commandments of God".
Of course, it is the fourth commandment that is stressed, since Ellen saw this one glowing in one of her visions. Salvation now becomes dependent on which day of the week one observes.
Modern Adventists keep sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as the Sabbath, but earlier in their history they kept 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday.
The rest of us "Sunday keepers" are doomed to receive the "mark of the beast" and lose our eternal life. (The Spirit of Prophecy V. 4, p. 505). They sure don't say this at their seminars!
Christ exclaimed "It is finished" when He died for our sins, but it is not finished in Seventh-day Adventism! EGW wrote in "The Faith I Live By" p. 211,
"At the time appointed for the judgement - the close of the 2300 days, in 1844began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins...both the living and the dead are to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works". (Rev. 20:12".
People are never told at Seminars that if they become SDA's and are baptized, a recording angel is watching their every move to determine their salvation eventually. EGW issues this warning in The Faith I Live By, page 210,
"Every man's work passes in review before God...Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered, with terrible exactness, every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel."
It's not much fun being an Adventist and being watched constantly by that recording angel with his "terrible exactness". Prepare to become very uptight.
Christians will say, "sure we slip sometimes into unintentional sin, but we have a mediator in Christ Jesus". No, you don't in Seventh-day Adventism. Be prepared for this SDA doctrine by Ellen G. White:
"...Those who are living on the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil....". (The Great Controversy p. 425).
Obviously they have chosen EGW's doctrine over that stated in the Bible in Hebrews 7:25,
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them".
Where would we all be without Christ as our mediator, EVER making intercession for us?
Christ bore our own sins in his body on the tree according to the Bible. 1 Peter 2:24 says, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree...". Become a SDA, and it will be Satan who will eventually bear your sins! Ellen G. White wrote,
"...so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin...so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate...".(The Great Controversy p. 485).
You won't hear this one at the Seminars! They keep their radical teachings for later.
False Prophecies
You Won't be Told About
Seventh-day Adventism grew despite endorsing a false date for Christ's return. What a dubious beginning!
Ellen G. White endorsed a false prophecy by William Miller that Christ would return, first in 1843 and then 1844. Miller repented when Christ didn't show up on his date but Ellen didn't want to be viewed as a false prophetess for endorsing him through her visions. The idea was concocted by one of her followers that the date was right, but the event was wrong. Ellen eagerly accepted this "out", and this explanation was offered to explain away the false prophecy:
Christ didn't come visibly to earth, but He, invisibly, in heaven, changed compartments from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844 and began the work of "investigative judgment" that we have discussed previously.
This false date and its failure triggered other heresies on the atonement of Christ which continues to this day. Honest-hearted SDA's who have pointed out the error of the 1844 investigative judgment have been shown the door by their Conference. You sure won't be told the true history behind the 1844 doctrine by SDA's!
Embarrassing false prophecies by EGW have been, altered, covered up, and locked up by the SDA's. You won't be told about them, but here are a couple.
One false prophecy done in the name of the Lord marks that one as a false prophet (See Deut. chapter 18).
Ellen G. White said people alive in 1856 would be translated at the 2nd coming of Jesus. (Testimonies, V1, p 131,132).
She said in Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, p. 259, that the United States would be "...humbled into the dust" by England during the Civil War.
No wonder Jesus told us to "Beware of the false prophets". Time is their enemy. These false prophecies will never be mentioned by the SDA's.
Cult Links
You won't be told at the SDA Seminars about the things they have in common with the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
SDA's share their early history with the Jehovah's Witnesses. An early Adventist, N. H. Barbour co-published with Charles Taze Russell. They had a falling out over (what else?) dates for the end of the world! (1844 and 1874), and parted company.
Both, however, kept heretical doctrines to this day like Jesus being Michael the Archangel, the denial of Hell, and both still advocate soul sleep. Both invented invisible occurrences in heaven for their failed dates for Christ's visible return, investigative judgment for the SDA's and Christ's invisible "presence" for Jehovah's Witnesses.
There is Mormon link also for the SDA's. It is a proven fact that Ellen G. White plagiarized most of her writings. The Church has been challenged by Walter Rea, author of the White Lie to prove that even 20% of her writings are original. They can't. Their weak defense was that there were no copyright laws in Ellen's day, so what she did was legal. You will never be told of her plagiarism by the SDA's.
As Ellen was rising to prominence, Joseph Smith had just died. Her writings contain many phrases used by Joseph Smith. Mind you, he has also been accused of plagiarism. I have a thick file of similarities, but time does not permit details at this time, but it does illustrate just how far her "borrowing" went. You will definitely not be told of her similarities to Joseph Smith at the Seminars!
Consulting the Dead
You really won't be told about Ellen G. White's engaging in necromancy, communication with the dead, expressly forbidden by God in Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you anyone...who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord..."
This particular necromancy occurred after the death of her husband James, whom she called "Father". She recounts the experience in a letter to her son published in "The Retirement Years" p. 161 - 163.
She begins her letter by stating that she was seeking God regarding her future,
"A few days since I was pleading with the Lord for light in regard to my duty"...
It is evident she believed this dream was in response to her prayers to God. James (whom she called "Father") appeared beside her as she was in a carriage. She reported he looked "very pale, but calm and composed". (After all, he was dead!)
She says,
"...I saw you die; I saw you buried. Has the Lord pitied me and let you come back...?"
We are not to have conversations with the dead, but Ellen and James converse back and forth about church matters and their health. At one point James foretells the future for Ellen,
"...Now, Ellen, calls will be made as they have been, desiring you to attend important meetings...".
James, her dead husband, goes on to tell her she must avoid taxing her strength by going to meetings and retire and write instead. He tells her "...Make this your first business".
Ellen now makes an agreement with her dead husband to stay in touch,
"Well, said I, James you are always to stay with me now and we will work together".
This would involve further communication with the dead. Ellen recounts that she then awoke and took the whole matter as being from the Lord in these words,
"...I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek...I have no duty to stand in General Conference. THE LORD FORBIDS ME. That is enough."
Well, that is enough to conclude, not only the letter, but the fact that Ellen consulted the dead and took it all as coming from the Lord. She indicated she wanted to continue this practice.
Can we trust this dream? No, of course not. How then are we to trust her other 200 or so "inspired by God" dreams and visions that occurred over her lifetime? We can't, if we judge matters by the word of God. You won't be told EGW practised necromancy at the Seminars!
Assorted Silliness
Often, cult research is tedious and boring. I am grateful to EGW for being humorous, ridiculous, and just plain silly. Her writings bearing her name are 17 times as long as the Bibleplagiarized or not.
Many of them have to do with her doctrines on health and food.
As an SDA you will be encouraged to become a vegetarian. Ellen indicated that your salvation could be dependent on giving up meat . No meat-eaters will be "translated" at Christ's coming (Counsels on Diet and Foods p. 380).
You won't be told this scripture by SDA's
"...he who is weak in faith eats vegetables only..." (Romans 14:2). (Fun to read to vegetarians).
She taught in Counsels on Diet ..on p. 390 (some editions) that
"...if we subsist largely upon the flesh of dead animals, we shall partake of their nature".
Partake of their nature? This is against God's creation laws of "kind", and Impossible. Also conveniently forgotten is Paul view, "Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions for conscience' sake." ( 1 Cor. 10:25). Obviously no vegetarians evident in the early church!
Most of EGW's concerns over diet were in an effort to control what she considered to be an excessive sex drive in the male. She devoted endless pages to discussing "secret vice" (masturbation) and blamed the practice for a wide range of diseases. Here, in "Solemn Appeal" page 12 are a few of the diseases said to be caused by "secret vice"
"...dyspepsia, spinal complaint, headache, epilepsy, impaired eyesight, palpitation of the heart, pain in the side, bleeding at the lungs, spasms of the heart and lungs, diabetes, incontinence of urine, fluor albus or whites, inflammation of the urinary organs... rheumatism, affected perspiration, consumption, asthma, catarrah, polypus of the heart, affection of the bones, fevers, ..etc. etc.
The cure for secret vice was even funnier. The perpetrator was to sit in a sitz bath at as low a temperature as possible. At the same time, he was to have a hot foot bath, while applying cold cloths to his forehead. He was also to wear an abdominal bandage or wet girdle at night "to good advantage".
She concludes, "Cool bathing of the parts affected is also beneficial".
To those SDA's who write me that I must be endorsing masturbation by making this public, let me assure you that this is not the case. Why don't they charge their leader with the same accusation? She wrote about it much more than I ever have! I am merely exposing her silliness in health matters. You'll never hear these ridiculous topics from the Adventists!
Thanks to Ellen White's influence, the Kellogg brothers were inspired to develop cold corn flakes, as hot porridge could "heat the blood" with undesirable results!
She sternly warned against using feather beds for the same reasons, but I found a letter from her asking someone to send her her featherbed! (EGW Vol 3, p. 341).
She also developed a "reform dress" on instructions from God, which was a bulky affair with pants under a long dress. She gave up on wearing hers finally, and so did the other women, after years of suffering discomfort.
Other assorted nonsense included Angels needing golden cards as gate passes to get in and out of heaven. (Early Writings p. 37-39),
She also "travelled" to other planets in her visions, and also claimed to have met Enoch (more necromancy). (EGW: The Early Years Vol.1 p. 114; p.157).
She taught that certain races of men are the result of amalgamation between man and beast. (SG Vol 3, p. 64,75). Which races? You won't be told this one at the Seminars, or even later!
Her silliness extended to wigs as well. Any woman daring to wear one would "...lose their reason and go hopelessly insane". (Christian Mothers, # 2, p. 121).
Well, that's about enough of the silliness. We could go on, but won't.
In conclusion, it is amazing to me that the SDA Church reveres Ellen G. White, choosing her visions, dreams, doctrines and teachings above the Bible. Other women had better run for cover, however, as they wouldn't dream of ordaining a woman in their denomination which is totally male dominated.
Adventists love to quote Walter Martin who was "had" by them as a young man and believed their statements without checking matters out closely, to prove they are not a cult. However, before he died, he made this statement on the John Ankerberg Show:
"I fear that if they continue to progress at this rate, then the classification of a cult can't possibly miss being reapplied to Seventh-day Adventism, because once you have an interpreter of Scripture, a final court of appeal that tells you what Scripture means, as soon as you judge Scripture by that, as soon as you have someone who has made doctrinal errors in the past, even on the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the atonement and other things, and that person is raised to that position or authority, you have polarization around that person".
By their own actions and stubborn clinging to Ellen G. White, her extra-biblical teachings, visions, and doctrines, the Seventh-day Adventists have placed themselves in the category of a cult. They certainly won't tell you this fact! They are a cult!
IN CONCLUSION
SDA's often make every effort to appear "evangelical", joining in with inter-ministry groups and trying to "blend in" with the Christian community.
However, make no mistake about it, they believe they are exclusively correct because they recognize and follow Ellen G. White. Among themselves, they mock the Christian's beliefs, calling our concept of salvation, "cheap grace". They privately consider themselves to be spiritually superior to the rest of us. The sources of many of the above points can found in more detail in the other articles on our web .
"I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall. They have been growing more and more corrupt; yet they bear the name of being Christ�s followers. It is impossible to distinguish them from the world. Their ministers take their text from the Word, but preach smooth things. The natural heart feels no objection to this. It is only the spirit and power of the truth, and the salvation of Christ, that is hateful to the carnal heart. There is nothing in the popular ministry that stirs the wrath of Satan, makes the sinner tremble, or applies to the heart and conscience the fearful realities of a judgment soon to come. Wicked men are generally pleased with a form without true godliness, and they will aid and support such a religion. Said the angel, Nothing less than the whole armor of righteousness can overcome, and retain the victory over the powers of darkness. Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. The sayings and doings of men are dwelt upon instead of the plain cutting truths of the word of God. Said the angel, The friendship and spirit of the world are at enmity with God. When truth in its simplicity and strength, as it is in Jesus, is brought to bear against the spirit of the world, it awakens the spirit of persecution at once. Many, very many, who profess to be Christians, have not known God. The character of the natural heart has not been changed, and the carnal mind remains at enmity with God. They are Satan�s own faithful servants, notwithstanding they have assumed another name. I saw that since Jesus had left the Holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary, and had entered within the second vail, the churches were left as were the Jews; and they have been filling up with every unclean and hateful bird. I saw great iniquity and vileness in the churches; yet they profess to be Christians. Their profession, their prayers and their exhortations, are an abomination in the sight of God. Said the angel, God will not smell in their assemblies. Selfishness, fraud and deceit are practiced by them without the reprovings of conscience. And over all these evil traits they throw the cloak of religion. I was shown the pride of the nominal churches. God was not in their thoughts; but their carnal minds dwell upon themselves. They decorate their poor mortal bodies, and then look upon themselves with satisfaction and pleasure. Jesus and the angels looked upon them in anger. Said the angel, Their sins and pride have reached unto heaven. Their portion is prepared. Justice and judgment have slumbered long, but will soon awake."
(Spiritual Gifts V.l,p.189-90)
I think most Christians would agree with this statement, and most Adventists would agree with it concerning the Adventist church itself. I want to point out that only quoting 9 words from two pages of text can lead to a misunderstanding of the context, and should be suspect when "websites" use such tactics. Again, try gaining some unbiased information from a credible source. You're making this way too easy for me.:rocknroll:
Just as an example of the truth of this statement, I don't even need to list the number of denominations that support homosexuality to the point of allowing someone of the LGBT community to pastor a church. That's a small offense compared to some of the doctrinal footwork that leads up to changes like that. Anyway, I don't think anyone would argue that a church such as the one described in those paragraphs would be an abomination in the sight of God, and that churches like that exist in every denomination.
"Seventh-day Adventists, in the early days, denied the Trinity, but now they accept it. However, they have "leftovers" from this heresy. Ellen G. White wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets, page 761, "...He (Jesus) was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord's Host, Michael the Archangel"."
Who was Jesus before He was named Jesus 2000 years ago?
Archangel is translated as "chief messenger".
Malachi 3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Genesis 22:11-12, "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Genesis 31:11-13, "And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred."
Genesis 32:30, "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Zachariah 3
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
John 5:26, 28, 29 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. � Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
Acts 5:30,31 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Adventists simply believe that Michael and Jesus are one and the same, the eternal son of God, the commander of the armies of heaven, one of the 3 in the God-head. It is possible to have it both ways, especially if the bible pretty much spells it out, and I'll have you notice that no Ellen White was quoted.
And yes, we do have a mediator in Jesus Christ, and no, the mark of the beast is obeying men rather than God. It's possible to be obedient to God's law, and it's possible to enter into Christ's rest. Either one will help you avoid the mark of the beast. The ones who are weak in the faith will keep the 4th commandment, the ones who are strong in the faith will enter into Christ's rest. The point is, that when a law comes down from an earthly government to observe Sunday as the only day of worship, both groups will not receive the mark of the beast. One group will say "we must not transgress God's law", and one group say "you can't force us to worship according to your man-made laws, we have entered Christ's rest", both groups will be obedient to God.
Just as an example of your false prophet claim, there are prophets in the bible such as balaam, jonah, and miriam. They were used by God to deliver messages to His people. They were most obviously not perfect. Balaam was given a message by God, but eventually died with the heathens. Jonah tried to run away from God, and afterward was angry that God didn't destroy Nineveh, effectively making him a false prophet. Miriam was a prophetess who was stricken with leprosy because she tried to usurp Moses's authority. The idea of a perfect human being that never speaks error and always tells the truth, and whatever they say must come to pass, is not in the bible. That comes from the papal idea about infallibility. There is only one who is perfect. Not everything Ellen White wrote about was prophecy or %100 correct, that's why we still compare all prophecy to scripture. However, if Balaam came against you with a message from God, and you ignored him because every word wasn't "gospel perfect", you're in danger of rejecting God's messengers.
1 Kings 13:18
18He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him. 19So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water. 20And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back: 21And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee, 22But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers. 23And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the donkey, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back. 24And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the donkey stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase. 25And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.
Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc. All great reformers given inspiration by God. Most of them would be considered heretics by today's protestants, and they would consider us heretics, maybe even try to have us executed. As far as reformers and prophets go, Ellen White was instrumental in helping to found a church with a medical and evangelism ministry that is second only to the catholic church, which is almost 100 times larger. Yes, there are crazies in the Adventist church, just like all other churches. There is a focus on non-important divisive doctrines just like other churches. Most importantly, try learning about SDA from a non-biased source sometime. Also, you are slinging the same attacks at SDA as you accuse them of slinging at everybody else. Not exactly constructive, and I notice you don't seem to want to take the time to respond to my posts about how un-christ-like your approach is.
