Author Thread: The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
DontHitThatMark

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 06:32 AM

I was doing a study on this today, and found a lot of verses that are very interesting. I know that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this, but they also believe that Jesus was simply a created being like humans are. Would you say that there is a biblical inconsistency with believing that Michael is Jesus, and is yet still the eternal "Ancient of Days"? As in, "Michael" is just another of the many different names that Jesus had? The term "angel" in the bible is translated simply from "messenger", it doesn't mean a different being or species, and Jesus IS the greatest messenger, the "Archangel".



Matthew 22

1While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?



Jesus is denoting two Lords here, both are the Lord of David, which is consistent with Jesus and God being the same.



Dan 10:21

But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.



Michael is referred to as Daniel's prince.



Gen 22:11

11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.



Who is this "Angel" that speaks for God and commands Abraham not to withhold his son from Him?



Exd 3:2

2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.



The "Angel of the Lord" is in the midst of the bush, and then it's noted that it's God speaking out of the midst of the bush, and Moses is commanded to remove his sandals because the ground is holy.



Joshua 5:13-15

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.



This is obviously not a man, no man or regular angel ever received worship, they always deny that they are to be worshiped. So this must be the Lord, and He refers to Himself as the Commander of the armies of the Lord. He even tells Joshua to remove his sandals because the ground is holy.



Rev 19:11-15

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



Jesus isn't name here directly, but it's pretty obvious who this is talking about, even though He is referred to by using different names and titles. The leader of the armies of heaven, with a sharp sword to smite the nations.



1Ch 21:16

And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.



The "Angel of the Lord" is standing between heaven and earth with a sword to smite Jerusalem.



Rev 12:7

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.



Michael is noted as leading "His" angels in the war against Satan. The leader of the armies of heaven.



Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



Michael stands up and apparently has the authority to be able to affect when the time of trouble begins in the last days. He also is noted as "standing for the people". Jesus is the one who stands for us in the judgment.



Exodus 23

20Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.



This Angel here is obviously special, the name of God is in Him and He is not to be disobeyed or provoked.



Jdg 2:1

And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.



The "Angel of the Lord" was with them in Egypt and made a covenant with their fathers.



1 Corinthians 10:4

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.



Jesus is the one who was in the wilderness with the Israelites, the Apostles were looking back into the scriptures that they had and discovering that Jesus was extremely active in the Old Testament.



Num 22:32

32And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine donkey these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33And the donkey saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. 34And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again. 35And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.



The "Angel of the Lord" determined that Balaam's way was perverse before Him, and commands Balaam to go with the men, but only to speak what the "Angel" tells him to.



Zechariah 3:2

2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?



"The Lord" said, "The Lord rebuke thee" when standing against Satan.



Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.



Michael the Archangel said, "The Lord rebuke thee" when contending with Satan.



So, what do you think? I know it's not a huge thing that changes the whole bible, but I feel like it really punctuates all that Jesus has been doing for us since the beginning. It didn't just start with His birth and He wasn't sitting on the sidelines in the Old Testament, He was very often interacting with us. No man has ever seen the Father, Jesus is the one they saw.



John 1

18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.



John 6

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.



Exodus 24

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.



The elders saw Jesus on the mountain. This idea also gives a new meaning to following the commandments of Jesus, because this follows the verses from exodus:



Exodus 24

12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.



Jesus gave Moses the commandments, which makes His later comments make a lot more sense.



Matthew 5

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



Matthew 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.



:peace::peace:

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DontHitThatMark

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 06:36 AM

Luke 24

25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.



:peace::peace:

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mcubed

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 05:30 PM

Michael cannot be the angle of the Lord. Angles cannot be worshiped or naything that belongs only to G-d, and the Hebrew Scripture makes it clear the angle of the Lord is Y-shua and Y-shua Himslf in the New Testament.

The Bible tells us that G-d the Son, the Messiah, is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob manifested in the flesh. This is the mystery of the incarnation, prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures, Is. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:5. Sometimes G-d the Son manifested Himself (prior to His incarnation) to His creation in physical form as the Malak Adonai or the Angel [of] Jehovah.

Hagar and the Angel of the LORD

This special Angel is first seen when He tells Hagar, who was fleeing from her mistress Sarah�s harsh treatment, to go back and submit herself to Sarah. It is this Angel that tells Hagar her seed will be become extremely numerous and she should name her firstborn, Ishmael, e.g. �G-d has heard.� This was because Hagar had cried out to the Lord, because of her affliction, Gen. 16.11. Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, �You are a G-d who sees,� for she said, �Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?� Gen. 16:13

Hagar is so convinced that she has seen G-d that she calls the place of her discussion with this Angel Be�er-la-hai-roi or �the well of the Living One who sees me.� The next time we see the Angel of the Lord, He comes and comforts Hagar and her young son, Ishmael. He does this after she and the lad had been told to leave Abraham and Sarah after the birth of Isaac, Gen. 21:12-21.

Abraham and Isaac and the Angel of the LORD

The next time we see this Angel is when G-d asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. It is the Angel of the Lord who stays Abraham�s hand when he raises it to sacrifice Isaac:

But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, �Abraham, Abraham!� And he said, �Here I am.� He said, �Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear G-d, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me,� Gen. 22:11-12.

So the actual text includes this �Angel� as speaking in the first Person as G-d, e.g., �you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.�

Jacob and the Angel of the LORD

The ministry of this special angel continues with the descendants of Abraham through Isaac. Jacob, the one whom G-d chose to be the heir to the Abrahamic Covenant, Gen. 12:1-3, Gen. 15, Gen. 17, is desirous of the promises of G-d. So much so that Jacob goes the extra mile and purchases the birthright from his brother Esau, Gen. 25:33. A purchase that he did not really have to make since G-d had promised the Covenant promises to him by divine decree, Gen. 25:23.

The patriarch Jacob had more than one encounter with the G-d of his fathers. The second time G-d reveals Himself to Jacob, the Angel of the LORD appears to him in a dream and instructed Jacob concerning breeding the flocks he tended. Jacob explains:

Then the Angel of G-d spoke to me in a dream, saying, �Jacob.� And I said, �Here I am.� And He said, �Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the G-d of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family,�� Gen. 31:11-13.

This time the Angel of the LORD speaks to Jacob identifying himself as the G-d of Bethel. This is a direct reference to Gen. 28:12-15 where G-d appeared to Jacob in the �stairway to heaven� dream and restated the Abrahamic Covenant to him. These are the same covenant promises of G-d that his brother Esau despised, Gen. 25:34.

The next appearance in the biblical record does not explicitly identify the �man� whom Jacob wrestles with as the Angel of the LORD. That does not mean this encounter was with a mere human being. As we learn from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the testimony of the author of the letter to the first century Jewish believers in Messiah Y-shua, Heb. 13:2, some angels can appear to look like mere men:

And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed down to the earth, Gen. 18:1-2 JPS.

By the end this chapter, we clearly understand that one of these �men� is left standing with Abraham, and the other two depart for the city of Sodom:

And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham stood yet before HaShem, Gen. 18:22 JPS.

It is established from the text that one of these three men, identified at the beginning of chapter eighteen, is G-d. He not only tells Abraham about his and Sarah�s future son (Isaac):

And He said: 'I will certainly return unto thee when the season cometh round; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son.' And Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him, � Gen. 18:10 JPS.

He reveals His plans to judge Sodom, Gomorrah and the other cities of the plain, Gen. 10:19; Deut. 29:23, to Abraham:

And HaShem said: 'Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doing;

Gen. 18:17 JPS.

Having learned from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that certain angels can look like men, and that G-d Himself can also appear in a similar form, we can better understand the story about Jacob and His wrestling match.

The supernatural nature of the actions of this man, coupled with Jacob�s description of �having seen G-d,� clearly ascribes deity to this wrestler:

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.' And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And be said: 'Jacob.' And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with G-d and with men, and hast prevailed.' And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen G-d face to face, and my life is preserved,' Gen. 32:25-31 JPS

Moses and the Angel of the LORD

The next appearance of the Angel of the Lord happens when Moses is tending the flocks of his father-in-law Jethro:

Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of G-d. The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. So Moses said, �I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.� When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, G-d called to him from the midst of the bush and said, �Moses, Moses!" And he said, �Here I am.� Then He said, �Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. Moreover He said, �I am the G-d of your father�the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob,� Ex. 3:1-6 JPS.

G-d is now appearing to Moses as a �bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.� Note that verse six clearly identifies the One speaking as the G-d of Abraham, �I am the G-d of your father�the G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac, and the G-d of Jacob.�The theological term for this is a Theophany. It denotes the appearance of G-d to man in a visible form. There are several instances of the use of theophanies in the Bible. The cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night that led the Israelites out of Egypt during the Exodus and protected them from the Egyptian army that was pursuing them, Ex. 14:19-20. This theophany continued to hover over the Tabernacle during the wilderness wanderings of the children of Israel, Ps. 78:14.

Balaam and the Angel of the LORD

The next appearance of the Angel of the LORD happens when G-d confronts the false prophet Balaam. Balaam was paid by Israel�s enemy to curse G-d�s chosen people. When Balaam attempts to curse Israel, G-d Himself appears as the Angel of the LORD and forces him to bless Israel:

And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his donkey, and went with the princes of Moab. And G-d's anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of HaShem placed himself in the way for an adversary against him. --Now he was riding upon his donkey, and his two servants were with him.-- And the donkeysaw the angel of HaShem standing in the way, with his sword drawn in his hand; and the donkeyturned aside out of the way, and went into the field; and Balaam smote the donkey, to turn her into the way, Nu. 22:21-23 JPS.

We are told that Balaam was an evil counterfeit prophet, Num. 31:16. The Apostle Peter uses Balaam as an example of the archetypal false prophet, II Peter 2:15. It is interesting that Balaam is blind to the presence of the Angel of the LORD who is standing right in front of him, Num. 22:21-22. However, his donkey sees the Being and acknowledges the presence of the Angel of the LORD, Num. 22:23-27. It is only after G-d allows the donkey to speak to Balaam that G-d opens Balaam�s eyes and he finally acknowledges his sin, Num. 22:34.

It is fascinating to note that every living organism in G-d�s creation (with the exception of man) acknowledges His supreme authority. The animals obeyed the Lord and came to Noah�s ark when summoned, Gen. 7:2-4, 7-9. When Abraham was about to offer Isaac as a sacrifice to the Lord, he responds to Isaac�s query concerning the fact that they had not brought an animal sacrifice with them to Mount Moriah by answering him, �The Lord will provide himself a lamb for the burnt offering my son, Gen. 22:8 KJV. The Egyptian plague of Exodus 8:16-18 is one of dust becoming gnats or flies. Interestingly this plague is the first one that involves an act of special creation. Something the Egyptian priests could not counterfeit, Ex. 8:18 (* Note). G-d instructed stinging insects to fight on behalf of the Israelites, e.g. Exodus 23:28, Deuteronomy 7:20, and Joshua 24:12. G-d created a huge fish to swallow Jonah, Jonah 1:17, and G-d commanded ravens to bring food to Elijah, I Kings 17:2-6. In every case, G-d�s creatures will immediately obey the instructions of their Creator. Man, however, is not so inclined, Psalm 14:1-3; Rom. 1:18-23.

Gideon and the Angel of the LORD

The next appearance of this Angel takes place during a confrontation between the children of Israel and their enemies on their eastern border in the days of the Judges, Judges 6:3. The Angel of the LORD rebukes the people for their disobedience to His instructions to drive out all the people that inhabited the land of Canaan, Judges 2:1-5. When the Midianites, Amalekites, and other tribes on Israel�s Eastern border are invading G-d�s people, the Angel of the LORD appears to Gideon:

And the angel of HaShem appeared unto him, and said unto him: 'The HaShem is with thee, thou mighty man of valor.' And Gideon said unto him: 'Oh, my Lord, if HaShem be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where are all His wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying: Did not HaShem bring us up from Egypt? but now HaShem hath cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian.' And HaShem turned towards him, and said: 'Go in this thy might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian; have not I sent thee?' And he said unto him: 'Oh, my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is the poorest in Mandonkeyeh, and I am the least in my father's house.' And HaShem said unto him: 'Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man,' Judges 6:12-16 JPS

So Gideon is encouraged by this Angel. He even identifies this angel using the Hebrew equivalent for the covenantal name of G-d- LORD from Ex. 3:14. That word is Adonai and it is not only interchangeable with the Tetragrammaton, YHWH or Yahweh (from which we get the English transliteration Jehovah), but also it clearly indicates that the Person who holds this name is the Creator of the Universe. Adon, in Hebrew, means �Lord,� however Adonai, used 439 times in the Bible, can be rendered either as �my Lord� (adon) or simply as �Lord� (Adonai).

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 07:16 PM

Very interesting topic. I have been attending a teaching about Michael. In many pictures or statues or other depictions of Michael he is standing on top of, or has in submission to himself by a leash or chain, a small dragon that is Lucifer. Google images of "archangel michael and lucifer". Michael's primary function is to stand between the people of the earth and Satan and/or evil. He nearly always has a drawn sword or lance and it is pointed at the dragon. Michael is also Saint George who also is depicted as a dragon slayer with sword or lance drawn and at the neck of the dragon. There are many teachings in the world and especially in Europe that Michael also bears the Christ Spirit and that he is the angel that engages in battles against evil with men on God's behalf.



It is interesting that there are Scriptures in which the Angel of the Lord, the Lord and God are all in the same place as in the case of Moses with the burning bush.



Some of the things discussed in the class I am in: There are those who believe that there are twelve archangels and each is assigned to a planet, the sun or moon in our solar system. They are also in charge or each age. Michael is the angel of Jupiter or Saturn, I don't remember which right now, and is presently overseeing the age we are in which will end in 2023. Some believe that Michael is the only archangel that has not thrown in the towel on humanity. Michael is the angel who will bring unity among all men and faiths so that there is a world wide spiritual awakening - something like of the lord of the Coexist movement.



Lastly, it is believed by some spiritualists that the earth will remain in turmoil until Michaelmas is practiced around the world. These people are actively spreading the practice wherever they can.



Of course none of this is in the Bible, except the burning bush story, but when the Old Testament is compared to some of the Kabbalistic traditions they are very similar. (Kabbalism is an ancient Jewish mystical tradition based on an esoteric interpretation of the Old Testament which some believe is occultly.)

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mcubed

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 07:30 PM

Michae did do 2 things, wait I think 3, that we know for sure. 1. He did come to Daniel and said he was fighting against the prince of darkness (something like that; don�t feel like looking it up so I won�t). in the book of Jude he was the one who took Moses body. If memory serves me right he spoke to Mary. Daniel and Jude I know for sure off the top of my head not the Mary thing. Point being the Bible tells us by definition of these Scriptures he works here on Earth. The Bible doesn�t tell us about other planets so there can be no evidence. And I think it�s safe to say if people are trying to teach me what the Bible doesn�t say, no matter how good-hearted/sincere these people are I need to run!!!!

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 08:25 PM

Mcubed, if you are referring to me as trying to teach you something that is not in the Bible and think you should run then that's fine. I'm not trying to teach you anything. I'm just sharing information.

There are plenty of things Christians teach, believing they are in the Bible, and they are not. You probably believe some of them yourself. So how can what I say give you cause to run when you should be running already? What difference does it make if some information is passed along that is interesting whether it is in the Bible or not? If you lived where I live and wanted to engage in conversation with people who do not know the Gospel you would have to be able to talk about mysticism, angels, and other spiritual subjects or you will have no way of conversing with more than half of the people who live around here and you will not have the ability to argue your case for the Gospel with them. If you tell a spiritualist to believe in Jesus they will tell you they do believe. Now what? They say, "you call 'it' God, I call it higher power". Is God a higher power or not? Now what do you say? They say they believe in God's Spirit and that it is in all of us and that we all have divinity within us. They pray to God and talk to Spirit too. What do you say? And whatever you do, don't think that quoting the Bible to them will convince them of anything because to them it is just another book of religious writings and they know it fairly well and will respond with writings in books you have never heard of probably because you ran the other way. Now what do you say? You cannot address their beliefs if you do not know what they are or what they are talking about. So go ahead and run, but there may come a time when what you don't know will prove to others that you don't know what you're talking about or you won't be able to reach them with the True Gospel. They will believe they have no reason to respect you enough to listen to anything you say if you cannot show that you have taken the time to investigate what they might believe and talk with them about it.

I'm not asking you to believe anything I wrote about Michael. I pointed out that nearly all of it is not in the Bible because I din't want anyone to think this was something a Christian should believe.

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mcubed

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 09:17 PM

No, I was not referring to you trying to teach me something that is not in the Bible. I was trying to make a polite statement to you about you should run. That's how cults are formed... out of love... take it or leave it... just saying!!!

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 09:30 PM

Hoping these Scriptures will help in your search of the Truth about the trinity.



Titus 2:13: "We wait for the Blessed Hope--the glorious appearing of our *GREAT GOD* and Savior, Jesus Christ."



Question: The 7 spirits of God are mentioned 4 times {Rev 1:4; 3:1; 4:5 & 5:6}in the book of Revelation. Should we worship the holy spirit or 7 spirits who stand before God's throne and are controlled by Jesus and His Father?



Christians are commanded to worship God *ALONE* as per Rev 19:10 & Rev 22:8,9 and hundreds of other Scripture. Rev 5:13,14: Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the sea and all that is in them, singing: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb {Jesus} be praise and honor and power and glory, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said "Amen," and the elders fell down and WORSHIPED! {The Lamb, Jesus}



Hebrews 1:6-8: When God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all God's angels WORSHIP HIM!"....But about the Son He {JEHOVAH GOD} says, "Your throne, O *GOD* will last for ever and ever!" Rev 22:3: The throne of God {The Father} and of the Lamb {Jesus} will be in the City {The eternal New Jerusalem} Rev 3:21: Jesus says, "To him who overcomes I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." There will be only TWO thrones for Jesus and His Father in the eternal New Jerusalem {according to Rev 22:3 above} and they are only TWO who should be worshiped both now and for ever and ever. Hebrews 1:8: About the Son He {The Father} says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever.!!"



Unfortunately there are many who worship other gods or even people such as the Roman Catholic worship of Mary; and this is an unpardonable sin unless repented of.



Rev 1:4: Grace and peace to you from Him who is, and Who was, and Who is to come and from the 7 spirits *BEFORE HIS THRONE*. Jesus says, "These are the words of Him *WHO HOLDS* the 7 spirits of God. Rev 4:5: *BEFORE* the Throne, 7 lamps were blazing {See Acts 2:3,4}. These are the 7 spirits of God. Rev 5:6b He {Jesus} had 7 horns and 7 eyes, *WHICH ARE* the 7 spirits of God sent out into all the earth.



Jesus said *I WILL SEND* the holy spirit to you in John 16:7b. Jesus says in John 16:13,14 "When he, the spirit of truth, comes he will guide you into all truth. **He will not speak **ON HIS OWN**, he will speak only what he hears...He will bring glory to Me by taking from *WHAT IS MINE* and making it known to you. And so the holy spirit or 7 spirits of God before His throne who is sent out into the world by Jesus and His Father is not God.



Therefore we should not worship the 7 spirits of God or the holy spirit. We should only worship Jesus and His Father who sit on TWO separate thrones and are our Co-Creators and are not some 2 headed monster or 3-headed trinity monster even though they are ONE in all they teach and stand for.



Revelation 22:1,3: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life...flowing from the throne of God {The Father} and of the Lamb {Jesus}.....The throne of God {The Father}and of the Lamb {Jesus {The eternal New Jerusalem}. Revelation 3:21: Jesus says, "To him who over comes, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with the Father on His throne!"



Now there are some who state that since Jesus and His Father are Both God and are the only Ones who should be worshiped they are also *EQUAL*. However Jesus also contradicts this view in John 14:28: Jesus says, "If you loved Me, you would be glad that I am going to to the Father, for the Father is *GREATER* than I !!"



Jesus says in John 14:23: "If you you love Me, obey My Words. Then My Father will love him,and **WE** will come to him and make **OUR** home with him.

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 09:44 PM

P774,



Are you asserting ontological subordination?

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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 10:04 PM

I Corinthians 15:22-28: For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn. Christ, the Firstfruits, then when He comes, those who belong to Him. Then the end will come, when He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power!... When He has done this, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under Him!



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The Angel of the Lord = Michael = Jesus
Posted : 10 Oct, 2013 10:20 PM

p774,



That does not answer my Q. I believe you are asserting that passage in an Arian or Sabellian sense.



Q. Are you asserting ontological subordination?

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