Thread: Jesus Christ ... Savior of the world or just a chosen few
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Jesus Christ ... Savior of the world or just a chosen few
Posted : 22 Aug, 2009 05:56 PM
I am interested in what You have to say in response to this topic .... I have been berated and attacked by one on this site in regards to where I stand in response to this topic .
So I go to the masses for information and opinion.
I only ask that we all walk in love in response to any and all posts
This is first time I have posed a topic on here
Thanks for allowing to be a part of the Chat Forum
Jesus Christ ... Savior of the world or just a chosen few
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 01:21 PM
HisAlways, I'm going to paste here my response to you from the other topic, "Is Satan Your Head Pastor?"
HisAlways, the Arminian viewpoint is not consistent with all of Scripture.
John 6:44 refers to God the Father doing the drawing first, and you cannot get more specific than that. One of the rules of interpretation is to use the more specific verses in order to define what the broader verses mean.
Yes, God so loved the WORLD, but if you read the whole passage it's ultimately limited to those who eventually believe. In Strong's Lexicon, this is what is cited:
(world)kosmos:
8b. of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
Notice the author cited extra verses next to this definition to clear up the common misconception that "world" means the exact same thing in all passages of Scripture.
Remember also, that faith and the ability to believe is a gift.
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake." - Philippians 1:29 (KJV)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." - Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." - John 10:15 (KJV)
It couldn't be any clearer that Christ died for the sheep only. Can people decide to be sheep? NO! The shepherd chooses his own sheep.
Regarding 1 Peter 3:9, you must read it in CONTEXT.
In 2 Peter 3:9, who is the author addressing? Everyone in the whole world? Scroll back up to verse 8, and... Aha! He's talking to the "beloved". If you want even further proof, go back to the beginning of 1 Peter. You can clearly see that it is addressing God's ELECT!
Now, I'm sure this will not be enough to convince you, so let's go into the Greek.
Now, the word "all" is "pas" in Greek. And just like "kosmos", there is a definition cited that is "some of all types". Now this just means some of all types of people, irrespective of race, gender, social class, etc. Remember in other Scriptures it talks about salvation not only available to the Jew, but the Greek also. Remember, CROSS REFERENCING!
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16 (KJV)
Now, another word we should look at is the word "some". Being "tis" in Greek, this is referenced as Strong's number 5100. Now, if we look at the word "any", we can see that it turns out to be the SAME Greek word! It is also referenced as "tis", or number 5100.
Now in the proper context, this is translated as "a certain one", or "certain ones".
This part literally reads: "The Lord is not willing that certain ones should perish."
As I mentioned earlier, the word for "all" in Greek is "pas". If you look into Strong's Concordance, the Greek scholar himself cites at the bottom that this word is almost always translated as "some of all types", and almost never translated to mean everyone in the entire world.
Strong writes: "... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ..."
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." - John 1:10 (KJV)
Are you going to say that here the world means "everyone who ever lived"?
How about here:
"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." - John 18:20 (KJV)
Does "the world" here mean "everyone who ever lived"?
No, of course not. In the first case it means "the world of the unbelievers" and in the second case it means "publicly without hiding".
In the same way, John 3:16, as I demonstrated earlier, refers to "the world of the believers".
I could not agree with you more, HisAlways, on what Romans 10:13 says and elsewhere about salvation.
Yes, WHOSOEVER, and WHOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved; but how is it really? Are men capable in their unconverted state to seek after God?
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." - Romans 3:11 (KJV)
We are DEAD in our trespasses and sins, and our heart is only inclined towards evil, and we are in bondage to it. We still have a free will, but think of it as being limited, since the heart of man will never want to seek the things of God.
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" - Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." - Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
So does God choose anyone for salvation? Certainly!
"For many are called, but few are chosen." - Matthew 22:14 (KJV)
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." - Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)
"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." - Ephesians 1:11 (KJV)
You must understand that God is sovereign and we are not. The idolatry of decisional regeneration is not taught at all in Scripture.
I would encourage you to read Romans 9. God has vessels of wrath fitted to destruction as well as vessels of mercy.
His ways are not our ways! You must understand that double predestination, when defined rightly is Biblical. When God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, this was PASSIVE intervention, because Pharaoh was already inclined towards evil. This is a righteous act of judgment on God's part; and if we cross reference:
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature." - Romans 1:26 (KJV)
We can see here that it is not an evil thing to give someone over to the sin they love. This is a dreadful judgment of God.
The antithesis is different however. The only way ANYONE can be saved is if God intervenes ACTIVELY in our lives to enable us to. Remember, salvation is an act of God, and not a collective effort.
Is God loving to everyone in the world? Yes! This is what we call the doctrine of common grace. You must realize that just the mere fact that we can eat good, breathe air, or have rain fall on us is a loving act from God.
However, God's love is only manifest in the greatest way to His children, or those who are in Christ.
In the end, Christ's death was sufficient to pay for the sins of everyone who ever lived, but only efficient for the elect.
I would suggest to watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue21vCvpoqI
God bless.
EDIT:
EXEGESIS OF ROMANS 8:29:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." - Romans 8:29 (KJV)
You must first understand the order of salvation:
THE ORDER OF SALVATION �
1. ELECTION � God�s choice of people to be saved
The act of God before creation in which He chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any unforeseen merit in them, but only because of His Sovereign good pleasure.
2. THE EFFECTUAL CALL � Proclaiming the message of the Gospel
The Effectual Call is an act of God the Father speaking through the human proclamation of the gospel, in which He summons people to Himself in such a way that they respond in saving faith.
3. REGENERATION � Being Born Again.
Regeneration is a secret act of God in which Him imparts (inplants) new spiritual life to us.
4. CONVERSION � Faith and Repentance
Conversion is our willing response to the gospel call, in which we sincerely repent of sins and place our trust in Christ for Salvation.
5. JUSTIFICATION � Right legal standing.
Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which He: 1. Thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ�s righteousness as belonging to us, and 2. Declares us to be righteous in His sight.
6. ADOPTION � Membership in God�s family.
Adoption is an act of God whereby He makes us members of his family.
7. SANCTIFICATION � Right conduct of life.
Sanctification is a progressive work of God and man that makes us more and more free from sin and like Christ in our actual lives.
8. PERSEVERANCE � Remaining a Christian.
Perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God�s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
9. DEATH � Going to be with the Lord.
Death is a temporary cessation of bodily life and a separation of the soul from the body. Once the believer has died, though his or her physical body remains here on the earth and is buried, at the moment of death the soul (or spirit) of the believer goes immediately into the presence of God with rejoicing.
10. GLORIFICATION � Receiving a resurrection body.
Glorification is the final step in the application of redemption. It will happen when Christ returns and raises from the dead the bodies of all believers for all time who have died, and reunites them with their souls, and changes the bodies of all believers at the same time perfect resurrection bodies like his own.
Now, on to Romans 8:29. Many people will claim that the word "foreknow" is just referring to God's foreknowledge of an event; but since we know that all men are limited in their free will, they will never seek God on their own.
The Greek word "proginosko", which is "foreknow", has 3 definitions cited in Strong's:
1. to have knowledge before hand
2. to foreknow
a. of those whom God elected to salvation
3. to predestinate
Now, due to the nature of the grammar of this sentence, it is an ACTIVE verb, or something that God does, and the Greek syntax is not passive. It is further proven by the fact that God's "foreknowing", is an intimate knowledge, not a general knowledge.
In this case, definition 2a. is the correct application in the context:
2a. to foreknow; of those whom God elected to salvation
We can also cross reference to such places as Romans 8:28:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." - Romans 8:28 (KJV)
Notice in the verses I'm presenting, how everything is focused upon God's doing, and not man.
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30 (KJV)
Well that's it for now. I hope that helped. God bless! :)
"But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD." - Jonah 2:9 (KJV)
Jesus Christ ... Savior of the world or just a chosen few
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 04:01 PM
Incredible,LOTC,predestination explained intelligently,and correctly,This was a hard doctrine for me at first,as it is for a lot of people,but it is all over the bible,and undeniable!once you truly embrace this truth,it only deepens your relationship with god,knowing that you just as easily could have not been one of the elect!Imagine that!It only makes me that much more thankful!And remember...God makes no apologys for this....this is his will!WE ARE TRULY "VESSELS OF MERCY"AND WE ARE BLESSED BEYOND IMAGINATION TO HAVE A SOVERIGN,ALWAYS EXISTING GOD CARE SO MUCH FOR US,THERE IS NO MORE AMAZING FACT IN ALL THE UNIVERSE THAT CHRIST SUFFERED AND DIED FOR SUCH A SINFUL PEOPLE
Jesus Christ ... Savior of the world or just a chosen few
Posted : 28 Aug, 2009 10:08 PM
One more thing Hisalways,you should not have been berated an attacked for your armenian veiws,just shown the truth in love,i pray that you find it,you will not beleive how much deeper your relationship with Christ can get!!!
Jesus Christ ... Savior of the world or just a chosen few
Posted : 3 Sep, 2009 06:27 PM
LegendoftheCrucifix ... you had a lot to say and I would be doing myself an injustice if I did not take time to research what it is that you have brought to the table ...so that IS what I am going to do .
Thanks for your post .. unlike others you have at least presented this to me in a NON attacking way ..thank you
all you can do is present information ..it is up to me or whoever might read to decied what it is I will do with it ...
I do not know that my point of view or my understanding wil be any different in the end But ...thanks
