This is from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep
"Soul sleep is an often pejorative term for what in academic literature is now (since the 1970s) generally called by the more neutral term Christian mortalism for the belief that the human soul is uncomprehending during the time between bodily death and Judgment Dayresurrection. The term "soul-sleepers" was historically pejorative, so the more neutral term materialists was also used in the 19th century.
Historically the term psychopannychism was also used, despite problems with the etymology and application The term soul sleep has also been applied to thnetopsychism, although this latter belief is that the soul is literally "dead" rather than "asleep" or merely uncomprehending. though the difference is difficult to identify in practice."
Anyone out there that can explain what this means? And also show me where in Scripture I can find it?
Hey man I don't know about soul sleep or whatever. If your right with God we know this won't matter anyway right? =) But to help you look at Matt 17:3 when Jesus took peter john and james to the mount of transfiguration. We know elijah never died but was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind of fire 2Kings chapter 2. But we also know that moses did die Deut.34:7 so if Moses was dead but then was transfigured with Christ on the mountain and since Elijah never died and he waas there too, they were in heaven. Paul says that "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord" 2Cor5:8 And the Lord is in Heaven. =) Hope this helped but I really wouldn't worry too much about "mortalists" and what all these theologians have theories about. There is so much more that we can live out instead of worrying about stuff that doesn't matter until we are there anyway ya know.
I still don't understand what "Psychopannychism" and "thnetopsychism" mean or signify. What is the premise. This is something that some Christians believe and it is part of their churches doctrine. I'm just wondering where it came from? And just what it means?
I don't know those terms either, but my church believes in soul sleep. We believe that the large majority of christian believers are "asleep" in the grave, except for a few that were translated or resurrected(who knows how many). I believe the idea of an immortal soul is a false one that leads into many other strange beliefs. I think the bible refers to sleep/death/resurrection enough that there is plenty of support for the "soul sleep", and it is very very quiet on the idea that a soul is immortal, or that we go straight to heaven/hell when we die.
Arc I still don't understand what "Psychopannychism" and "thnetopsychism" either. It's like the ingredients on the back label when you buy something at the grocery store. If you can't pronounce it or you don't know what it means, you might better not buying it. May be harmful! I only trust the word for my answers. A old man once told me if you just read the words in red and live by it, you will be just fine.
Here is a comment from one of my earlier post about this matter.
"Is there life beyond the grave, or does death end it all?"
"If a man die shall he live again?" Job 14:14
What Is Man?
In order to understand what happens to man after death, we must first investigate the origin, nature, and constitution of man himself.
"What is man that thou art mindful of him?" (Psa. 8:4) There are but two possible answers:
(1) Man is a mere animal who evolved from unknown ages past through a process of evolution or
(2) Man is a spirit-being who was created by an act of God.
If the first is true, then all questions can be easily answered. The dead have ceased to be, and all who die will likewise become extinct.
The bible affirms the second to be true: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Gen. 1:27), "Formed from the dust of the earth...." (Gen. 2:7), "A little lower than the angels,---crowned with glory and honor" (Psa. 8:5). There is a great difference between Man and Animals. Man was created in the image of God, animals were not. Adam was a son of God.
Whole nature of man is described as body, soul, and spirit. "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23). The "body" is the fleshly or material part. The "soul" sometimes refers to physical life (Psa. 78:50 "did not spare their soul from death.") and sometimes refers to whole man (Acts 2:41 "...added about 3000 souls...").
The word "spirit" when denoting the human entity, is a specific term and designates that part of us which is not susceptible of death and which survives the dissolution of the body. "Soul" is a generic word and its meaning must be determined, in any given instance, from the context in which it appears. If I asked you to define "bark" for me, you could not possibly know whether I mean by it the sound a dog makes, or the outer covering of a tree. However, if I said "Bark is thicker this winter than usual" you are able to determine the meaning of the word by the context in which I use it. So also with the word "soul". Its meaning depends upon the context in which it us used. It may refer to a person, to animal life, intellectual nature in contrast with the higher spiritual nature and the lower physical nature, or may be used as a synonym for the never-dying spirit of man. "Soul" and "spirit" are sometimes used interchangeably: �....you will not leave my soul in Hades� (Acts 2:27) and (Luke 23:46) "...into thy hands I commend my spirit." The meaning being that the "spirit" is the immortal nature of man.
Paul wrote of the "outward man" and the "inward man" in 2 Cor. 4:16. The spirit dwells within the body. Daniel cried, "I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body..." (Dan. 7:15). "The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech. 12:1). Man, then is a spirit enshrined in a body, the spirit being the true self. By our body, we are allied to the earth. By our spirit we are in the likeness of God. Our spirit signifies wind, air, the rational part of man, or the undying soul. The spirit of man is the part knows the things of man (1 Cor. 2:11). The fact that man�s soul came not from the dust, but from the eternal God, justifies belief in the immortality of the soul and its survival at the body�s dissolution.
What Is Death?
Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. The dust shall "return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). "The Body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26). The bible does not say "the spirit is dead without the body" but that the "body is dead without the spirit." The spirit does not die, only the body. On the cross Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Lk. 23:46). Paul spoke of death as a "departure from this life". "I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ..." (Phil. 1:23-24). "The time of my departure is at hand..." (2 Tim. 4:6). In 2 Cor. 5:1 Paul spoke of the tabernacle being dissolved "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved...". In verses 4-8 he speaks of being "at home in the body" and "absent from the body."
The miracle of bringing persons back to life in Biblical times was simply the returning of the spirit to the body. Elijah prayed that the son of the widow of Zarephath might be restored to life. "I pray thee, let the child�s soul come into him again...and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived" (1 Kings 17:21-22). When the Ruler�s daughter was raised by Christ in Luke 8:55 it is said "her spirit came again." Spirit beings exist apart from material bodies. Both God and angels exist apart from material bodies. The spirit of man may exist with or without a physical body. David did not consider his dead child non-existent. "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Sam. 12:23). That the dead continue to live is further emphasized by Christ when he said to the dying penitent robber, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).
The spirits' disembodied state between death and the resurrection is taught in the account of the transfiguration of Christ with Moses and Elias (Matt. 17:1-8). He appeared and talked with them. Moses had been dead about 1500 years and his body buried in an unknown grave. Yet both he and Elias were still in existence, retaining their personal identity and individuality. Mark 12:18-27 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" Then Christ added "God is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Are The Dead Conscious?
What is the condition of the soul after death and before the resurrection? Is the departed soul conscious or unconscious?
Luke 16:19-31 - Two great facts can be learned from this teaching:
(1) death is not extinction; the spirit survives the dissolution of the body,
(2) disembodied spirits are conscious between physical death and the resurrection, and either happy or miserable, depending upon the life they lived on earth.
Eccl. 9:5 is often used to prove that the dead are unconscious: "the dead know not anything." Note the next verse which says "under the sun." This passage has reference solely to what the dead can know or do "under the sun," that is in the world in which they once lived. After death ones activity ceases on earth, hence he knows nothing about what is happening on earth.
Where Are The Dead?
Where is the spirit after it leaves the body? The soul is not in the grave with the body, nor does it hover near the grave; nor has it entered some other body. Any idea of transmigration or reincarnation of souls is at odds with biblical teaching. The bible says the spirit returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7).
Where then do souls go at death? Is it to their eternal abode or to some intermediate abode? Matt. 25:31-46 describing the final judgment says "Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...", "...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into everlasting life." Jesus said in John 14:1-4 "...In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Hence, souls do not enter their eternal state, either heaven or hell at the moment of death.
The place where all disembodied spirits dwell between death and the resurrection is Hades. In Luke 16 the spirits of both Lazarus and the rich man were in Hades. "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes" (Luke 16:23). The spirit of Jesus went into Hades at his death (Acts 2:27, 31). "For David saith concerning him...Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades...". When a man dies his spirit goes to Hades, his body to the grave.
Hades is divided into two compartments: Paradise (abode of righteous) and Tartarus (abode of wicked). At the resurrection the righteous will leave paradise for Heaven and the wicked will leave tartarus for hell.
Four words are translated "hell" in the KJV:
1. Hades--the place to which all spirits go at death, regardless of their moral character. Signifies only the region of disembodied spirits. The grave denotes only the receptacle of the body.
2. Gehenna--denotes the final abode of the wicked, the hell of fire. Used 12 times in the Greek NT.
3. Tartarus--Used only one time in the Greek NT. 2 Peter 2:4 "...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." (the compartment of Hades occupied by the wicked between death and the resurrection as they await the final judgment.) This is where the rich man was in Luke 16. In this place he suffered torment. Although he was in anguish, he was not in Gehenna. "The Lord knoweth how to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment" (2 Pet. 2:9).
4. Paradise--refers to the abode of the righteous spirits in Hades. "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Both Jesus and the robber were in paradise (Hades) together. Hence paradise, here, does not refer to heaven for Christ did not go to heaven when he died. After three days, Jesus was resurrected and 40 days later ascended to heaven. The word paradise is also applied to the eternal home of the redeemed, which they will inherit in their resurrected bodies. This "paradise"(Rev. 2:7; 2 Cor. 12:4) refers to a place of delight or pleasure garden, which heaven will certainly be.
(5.) Sheol, an Old Testament word translated "hell" parallels the Gr. word "Hades." Both mean the unseen realm of departed spirits. The word does not refer to Gehenna, nor to the literal grave, the abode of the body. However in the KJV it is translated "the grave", "the pit", "hell".
After death there can be no opportunity for one to change his life�s record. Death cannot work any change in a person�s character. When death comes, the spirit goes to Hades where a "great gulf" separates the saved from the lost. The gulf is "fixed". What one did in life will determine his/her eternal destiny (Rom. 14:12; 2 Cor. 5:10). It is important that you prepare today. Tomorrow may be too late.
You say that your church believes in "Soul Sleep". Perhaps you could ask your Pastor where in Scripture I could find reference to "Soul Sleep". Also when was this first talked about in Christianity and by whom?
There's some, but it's all very easily "logicked" away.
1. What is our reward for following Christ? Eternal life, right? But don't we already have immortality if our souls are immortal? And doesn't that directly conflict with the scripture that says only God is immortal?
2. When do we get this reward/eternal life? When Christ brings His reward with Him at the second coming, right? Or is it when we die?
3. If our soul is immortal, then according to your beliefs...both the saved and the wicked have the same reward. The temperature is just different.
:peace::peace:
P.S. I've attempted to answer your question, is there any way you could answer mine about the Catechism of Trent?
I am all over soul sleep. After this life I could use a nap!!!
Here's something interesting regarding the soul. I saw a story on tv several years ago about how brain surgeons noticed that no matter which loge of the brain they removed (right or left) the patient was consistently still able to express the same personality. In other words the person is not in the brain. Well, if not in the brain then where? The Bible says the life is in the blood. The better translation for life is soul. WE have these sayings like "blood is thicker than water" and "it's in their blood" and a few others but we never think about what this really means. Could our soul actually be in our DNA? Removing a lobe of the brain does not eliminate all of our DNA. However all of ouor body is made up of our DNA.
There's more. Is it possible thatthat when we are born from above we receive some sort of DNA enhancement or change, if you will, because we are now the Children of God. We are given His nature through the Holy Spirit because we are now partaking of the blood of Christ. It is in our blood! It's something I read once and has always made me wonder.
If we do have it in our blood then we receive eternal life when we are born from above and not when we are raised to "new life". Regardless, I believe this much is true. Eternal life doesn't start when we die or are raised at the second coming. It begins when we are born into it. We who are born from above are the offspring of our Heavenly Father. It's an interesting concept.
Sorry if I got off track but this just made me think of this.
I think you�ve got something there! I know this is off track but�from what I understand�we are given a �soul� when the �spirit� (breath of life) enters our body at conception. It is this combination of �body� and �spirit� that makes our �soul�.
There is a danger in attributing �physical� space (cells) with �soul��much as Dianetics and Scientology does (with the Thetan being trapped in an Engram�ooohweeeoooh!).
My purpose in this thread is simply to bring out the different doctrines that can occur from reading Scripture and using personal interpretations. This doctrine of Soul Sleep was not around until later in history. The Church did not believe it at all until (I believe) Luther purposed it.
Christ knew what we men were capable of and that is why He Instituted His Church to ensure that we did not stray. It was that way for over 1500 years. Just trying to bring up a valid point, but we could go back to the way we were (here on this site).
I would still like to see irrefutable Scripture about this.
