Walter, I kind of noticed you are big on using Strong's #s and therefore the Greek definitions and use of words.
And as 1 Peter 2:18 says, "Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear' and 1 Pe 3:1 says, "Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands," I think you would agree a slave and a wife hold vastly different positions. Seen as a military term a slave would likely be out front while the wife/Queen sits next to her husband the King. Even if the King chooses to enter the battle the queen would be held back and protected. The slave on the other hand would be the first to die. It may be the same word and/or military term but I would point out a wife is not quite on the same level as a slave. Some wives probably think they are. But I don't think you meant it to sound like that. I think that kind of thinking is central to most arguments against "Wives, submitting to the husbands." A wife may be called upon to battle on her husbands behalf spiritually in a time of illness, weakness or discouragement. A wife should not abandon her husband spiritually because he has fallen in battle.
You know the Greek words for divorce?
Matt 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" A biblical divorce had to have two parts. She had to be given a certificate of divorce and be put away. You can say Strong's #630 and #647 mean the same thing but a closer look shows they do not have exactly the same meaning. The most accurate translations have Jesus saying "put away" instead of divorce in all these passages.
Jesus never said a woman that had been put away "AND" given a certificate of divorce would be committing adultery if she married. When Jesus said "You have heard...but I say to you," He was not throwing out Moses or the Old Testament law and replacing it with new commandments. He was talking about the religious leaders of that day i.e. the Pharisees and Sadducee whom He also called a brood of vipers and hypocrites. Jewish cultural history is helpful in understanding what a biblical divorce really is. He was asked what a biblical divorce is and how must it be done according to the law?(Ezra 10:3) (Deut. 24:1-5) She had to be given a certificate of divorce and put away. But a husband can still put away his wife and not give her a certificate of divorce.
The practice continues in Judaism today. Google "Agunah" to find out what it means to be put away but not legally divorced and therefore not free to marry. Your interpretation may define a New Testament "Christian" or "Gentile" divorce and if that works for some people fine. That is a matter of faith. "As you have believed so let it be done unto you" Jesus said to the centurion.
But to call it a biblical divorce IMO we should use the whole bible. After all, it was the Jewish people Jesus was teaching and who understood their culture.
Coincidence, there are also two Hebrew (Old Testament) words, One for divorce certificate and one for put away. And a lawful/biblical divorce had to have both parts.
The woman was called Agunah meaning "chained wife" because she was not given a legal certificate of divorce. She was cast off and not permitted to marry until that hard hearted husband got money or whatever he wanted, to set her free. How many wives have been cast of emotionally or physically and so chained? This is also what it says "God hates putting away" not God hates divorce. A more accurate translation says it is the Man who hates and puts away, describing the very same "chained wife" condition. Bottom line, is women should be treated with kindness and love because that is what they have been created for and not like property to be bought and sold like slaves. :waving:
The Bible says Drunkards have no part of the Kingdom of God. And for good reason. But divorce is banned only in a case (Old Testament) where a man takes an unmarried or non betrothed maiden. If He is approved by the father, He must pay the father the Bride price for virgins and marry her. He must not divorce her all his days. Notice they are not taken out and stoned like those committing fornication i.e. Adultery, Homosexuals, incest, prostitution or bestiality.
Now as for your non biblical grounds for divorce if I had a wife and she got drunk once I would not divorce her. But if she did it again I would likely throw her out.
You have your standards and I have mine. :rocknroll:
Many things are listed in the Bible as sins. Divorce is not one of them. Nevertheless we are to seek daily forgiveness (Lord's Prayer) for everything. But if you label Divorce a sin, it cannot be repented of or turned away from because you are stuck. Therefore it becomes unforgivable. The only remedy is lifelong celibacy and becoming a eunuch for the kingdom of God.
The church council on divorce seek the offending party. Making one partner guilty the other innocent. The innocent is free to remarry but not the guilty? It seems the offender who lacks self control in this area is the one that needs to be remarried. I would hate to be the one thinking they are without sin. Most on this site, being divorced, know the real reason for it, unrepentant self-centerdness aka a hard heart.
I agree divorced people are judged as if they have committed the unpardonable sin. And your statement that divorce is just like any other sin is too simplistic. Do not take offense, but many who take great pride in their happily married life, (fewer now than ever), do believe divorce is a sin. And sort of emotionally lord it over the already fragile mental state of believers hurting from divorce.
Divorce is not a sin but can be caused by sin. Take the example of Ezra 10, the so called covenant of divorce. It was an act of repentance. They were told to divorce their pagan wives and they were to do it according to the Law. Jesus was asked about that too. How do you divorce according to the law?
Today we must have Biblical grounds for divorce. This is for adultery/fornication or abandonment of an unbelieving spouse. Additionally, Physical, emotional or mental abuse and/or abandonment is often held as a legitimate reason.
But the Biblical divorce according to the law has two parts. She must be first put away, which means separated physically and emotionally. And she must be given a writing of divorce in her hand saying she is free to marry. Deut.24:1-4.
Your statement that you would not submit to a husband, that does not love you "as Christ loves the church," could be seen as grounds for divorce. Even worse you could be stoned to death for looking at (mental adultery) another guy. This type of legalistic hardness of heart is what Jesus had to deal with. But HE came to bind up the broken heart. And we should treat the divorced community as casualties in need of healing and not judge them with condemnation.
A divorce guy may need more forgiveness and therfore love you more, as Jesus said Who is forgiven more, loves more, Luke 7:47.
God's excellent beauty can be seen in all of creation including the differences of man and woman and the way they approach love.
Some say a woman is not commanded to love her husband in the bible but that a man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. You may be on to something here and that is "falling in love" describes fallen man or in this case a fallen woman.
Eve received the "curse" of the fall; pain in childbirth; dislike for snakes;
also her desire, will be towards her husband but he will rule over her.
I'm of the opinion some of this curse has been removed...
But Galatians 3:13 says, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us"
The curse of the Law is like the curse of the fall. But most women still don't like snakes. OK some do. Woman no longer have pain in childbirth. Uh, That would depend on what health insurance they have, LOL.
:nicenurse:
And women now have total control of their desires and emotions and are able to choose who/what to set their affections on. Right?
The curse may have been removed but Christians are still learning how to walk in the fullness of salvation.
Should men and woman "Fall" in love? Or do men have control (dominion) over women in that area? Does it seem woman/mothers are more loving than Fathers? Are modern woman better off finding love "today" than in historical times back? :waving:
When a man loves his wife as Christ loves the church it does not mean that he transmuted and becomes Christ himself. A Godly woman must have her own personal relationship with the Lord. Only God can change a man. But a woman can let her requests be made known to God concerning her husband.
For too long woman have got away with blame shifting saying the husband is not a spiritual leader or whatever. Or He does not love enough like Christ.
At the end of Ephesians chapter four it tells us how to relate to each other. And It is for all believers as dear children, that they should love each other as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. This is not a male only message. Women can give and receive God's Agape' love.
And in marriage the wife does has authority over the man's body, 1 Cor 7:1-5.
The problem with submission/headship is that some men believe they are given authority over the wife as Christ has over the Church.
The bible says there is only one name given by which we may be saved. The husband is not a 2nd all male priesthood. women do not need a secondary savior no matter how much the man may think that he is one. And the husband will never be the perfect sacrifice that brings salvation.
The woman nags her husbands to be more like Christ and the husband says she does not submit enough. This is such a standard excuse for finger pointing it has become humorous.
But Remember God will not let you be tempted beyond your power to resist. But a foolish wife will. And that is also what a prostitute does.
Men are told to Love as Christ, and lay down their lives. Is it because men take their wives for granted. And because women already do this as their desire is toward the husband? Genesis 3:16
Taken out of context, "Husbands Love your wives," becomes a mantra for failure in the husbands who may not be as strong as Christ or to lay down their life. This is not just for husbands to lay down lives, though our culture has rightly romanticized the hero who saves women and children by sacrificing himself first. It says we should all love one another as Christ who gave Himself. That could be just as easily mean wives love your husbands (or children) as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it.
The beginning of Ephesians five starts out with an example of this love.
"1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. Ephesians5:1-2.
Unlike an offering for sin the "offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma" is a love offering. In other words you are not saved by giving up yourself, but give to others as you would to God.
IF you WERE saved by giving of yourself it should be remembered what Jesus said to those that gave as unto the Lord.
"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Matt 25:40-41.
Taken out of context, "Husbands Love your wives," becomes a mantra for failure in the husbands who may not be as strong as Christ or to lay down their life. This is not just for husbands to lay down lives, though our culture has rightly romanticized the hero who saves women and children by sacrificing himself first. It says we should all love one another as Christ who gave Himself. That could be just as easily mean wives love your husbands (or children) as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it.
The beginning of Ephesians five starts out with an example of this love.
"1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. Ephesians5:1-2.
Unlike an offering for sin the "an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma" is a love offering. In other words you are not saved by giving up yourself, but it is still very pleasing to God. :bouncy:
But IF you WERE saved by giving of yourself it should be remembered what Jesus said to those that gave as unto the Lord.
"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Matt 25:40-41.
Wise bible scholars should have this understanding "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" and quoted by Jesus Himself.
Mat 24:15 "Therefore ...WHEN YOU SEE... the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
I'd agree with Jackie who says, "In other words Jesus is saying to get the heck out of Dodge quickly." :purpleangel:
What is left to happen? What do Jesus and Daniel mean by ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION? :prayingm:
