In another thread, a member here claimed: "Yahweh wouldn't cause a person to Rebel~Resist against Him...because that's just plan stupid...and Yahweh is Righteous...not stupid"
Actually, the only thing that is stupid is denying the plain teaching of the Word of God in favor of one's own opinion!! :excited:
Rom 9: 15-23 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
Prov 21:1 [KJB:PCE] "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD , as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."
Would you like to see and understand how this process works? How did God cause Pharaoh to resist Him? He actively hardened Pharaoh's heart. Let's examine the example of Pharaoh. Please follow the progression in Exodus.
God's message to Pharaoh
Exodus 4:21-23 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD , Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
NOTICE: God God hardens Pharaoh's heart causing him to resist and then commands Pharaoh to let Israel go.
Exod 4:21 [KJB:PCE]
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
NOTICE: God hardens Pharaoh's heart causing him to resist.
Exod 7:3 [KJB:PCE]
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
NOTICE: Again, God said he hardens Pharaoh's heart causing him to resist.
Exod 7:13 [KJB:PCE]
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
NOTICE: Again, God said he hardens Pharaoh's heart causing him to resist.
Exod 7:14 [KJB:PCE]
And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.
NOTICE: The effect from the cause. Pharaoh's heart is now said to be hardened since God hardened it which caused him to resist.
Exod 7:22 [KJB:PCE]
And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
NOTICE: The effect from the cause. Pharaoh's heart is now said to be hardened. Why? because God hardened it.
Exod 8:15 [KJB:PCE]
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exod 8:32 [KJB:PCE]
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
NOTICE: Now it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Following your logic, you would claim that he had the ability within himself to do so. However, following what the Bible teaches we would understand CAUSATION. Stated plainly, it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart but as we can clearly see the ACTIVE CAUSE of this hardening was God and NOT Pharaoh and NOT Satan. :laugh:
Exod 9:12 [KJB:PCE]
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
NOTICE: Again, it is said that God hardens Pharaoh's heart causing him to resist.
Believe His Word as it is written. Throw down your weapons you who speak against the Most High, repent, and bow down to His rule. :bow:
"Yahweh wouldn't cause a person to Rebel~Resist against Him...because that's just plan stupid...and Yahweh is Righteous...not stupid"
I agree with you!
The sovereign G-d pours out His mercy on some ("on whom I will have mercy"). "But why doesn�t G-d pour out His mercy on all?" The real question is this: "Why does G-d pour out His mercy on anybody? None of us deserve the mercy of G-d. We don�t even deserve one drop of G-d�s mercy!" If G-d were to show no mercy at all and pour out His judgment on every single person He would be absolutely fair because this is exactly what every single person deserves. The amazing thing is that G-d shows mercy toward anyone! The amazing thing is that anyone is saved! Paul is quoting from Exodus 33:19 and it is important to understand the context of this passage. In Exodus chapter 32 the children of Israel quickly and wickedly turned aside out of the way which G-d commanded them (v.8) and made a golden calf in violation of the second commandment. The people were guilty and they all deserved to be judged and destroyed (see Exodus 32:10--G-d could have righteously destroyed them all!). It is amazing that only 3000 died (Ex.32:28). Compare the concern of Moses for his people (Ex.32:32) with the concern Paul had for the Jews (Rom. 9:1-3). May we never cease to marvel at the great mercies of our G-d (Exodus 34:5-7) and may we, like Moses, bow our head and worship Him (Ex.34:8), saying, "Lord, there is no unrighteousness with You!"
What does Paul mean when he says that these persons are "fitted for destruction"? This is illustrated in the case of Pharaoh. G-d did not make him wicked and obdurate; but as a punishment for his sin, He so dealt with him that the EVIL OF HIS NATURE revealed itself in a form, and under circumstances, which made him a fit object of the punitive justice of G-d. Think of it this way: How can a man be made evil? Nothing needs to be done! He already is evil and if left to himself he will in time fully reveal the sinfulness of his heart and how deserving he is of the judgment of G-d. How can a man be made good and fit for heaven? This is impossible apart from the grace of G-d and the G-d of grace. Man does not need G-d in order to be wicked. Man does need G-d in order to be good. Man could never be good apart from G-d. The vessels of mercy have the hope and expectancy of a glorious future, and G-d will use these vessels to make known WHO HE IS. Prepared beforehand, made ready beforehand. In Ephesians 2:10 the same verb is used to refer to the good works which G-d "before ordained" (prepared beforehand) that we should walk in them. Compare also Matthew 25:34--"inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." This verse makes it very clear that it was G-D who prepared beforehand these vessels unto glory (in contrast to verse 22 where it does not say that G-d fitted the vessels of wrath to destruction).
This is what the Bible actually teaches. God has mercy on whoever He wants and He also hardens whoever He wants. In addition, it is he who makes one a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor - a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath.
Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
God taught us through the examples He chose to be in the Bible, that He expects us to ask for mercy...so we don't get what we deserve for our sins...
Psalms 4:1�Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness:�thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress;�have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.
Psalms 6:2�Have mercy upon me, O Lord; for I am weak:�O Lord, heal me; for my bones are vexed.
Psalms 13:5�But I have trusted in thy mercy;�my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.
Psalms 25:16�Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me;�for I am desolate and afflicted.
Matthew 9:27�And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.�
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him:and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.�
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. 30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.�
31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.
Luke 18:13�And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.�
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other:for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Matthew 6:8�Be not ye therefore like unto them:for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew 7:7�Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:�
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.�
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?�
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?�
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
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God knows I need mercy before I ask...it doesn't take away my need to ask Him for it.
Again, Paul was quoting about the potter from the old testament, and yes, God clearly sets his plans in motion, but is also listening for repentance. And luckily, the bible also provides the clear evidence for this in the story of Nineveh.
Jeremiah 18
King James Version (KJV)
18 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm. The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.
God's plans do not change. He does not set a plan in motion, wait to see how man responds, weigh all of his options, and then decide what to do from there.
2 Chronicles 21:14 So the Lord sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel 70,000 men.
15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand...
Amos 7:1 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.
2 And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said,
O Lord God, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? For he is small.
3 Tje Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord....
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said he would do unto them; and he did it not.
